anyone GUT their cat?

Say what you want about me being a bench racer, or being all talk. I'm registered for the Canadian Sport Compact Series(drag racing), I never have a reaction time slower than .800, and I'm in the middle of building the fastest all motor Protege in North America.

Why wouldn't I correct people when they spread misinformation? I don't know everything there is about cars, and if there's something I don't know about, I won't comment. But as it sits, I know enough, and I dyno EVERY mod I do on my car, so I can stand by my claims. So when I say my full 2.5" exhaust didn't make me lose any torque, I have the dyno charts to prove it.

It's amazing how rattled people get when they're wrong.
 
xelderx said:
I'm also going to admit that I am using the word "backpressure" incorrectly. What we are really talking about here is scavenging or lack there of (backpressure as far as I'm concerned). I hope my mis-use of words is not what is causing us to butt heads.
I think it is. Torque vs HP, is COMPLETELY subjective. But under no circumstance do you want backpressure.
 
Gen1GT said:
I think it is. Torque vs HP, is COMPLETELY subjective. But under no circumstance do you want backpressure.
I don't like jumping in the middle of thing but, you do want some backpressure, It's Causes a suction effect to help draw the exhaust fumes out

here a good picture i found

bosalwv.gif

1. Escaping exhaust gas creates pressure wave moving down the system.
2. Wave hits the systems end, causing suction wave to travel back up the system.

3. Suction wave hits the cylinder and reverses direction just as the exhaust valve opens. The suction wave helps pull exhaust gases from the cylinder improving engine breathing and volumetric efficiency.
 
or u can just move to southern louisiana and put a straight pipe no cats what so ever and not worry about switcthing it back ever, because we dont have to do smoge test... hehe...this is out inspection test...
"
Turn on ur head lights..
right turn signal
left turn signal
reverse lights
Press your Brakes..
ok You good. 10 dollars please."

o yeah and they make sure u have a muffler...
so if you move over here u can fix your cats up like that.. personally i would put a high flow cat. and get headers to elimate the first one
 
or you can ghetto it and somehow get headers that are able to fit in upside down, cut a hole in your hood.. and that is that..
 
Gen1GT said:
I think it is. Torque vs HP, is COMPLETELY subjective. But under no circumstance do you want backpressure.
Fair enough, but I'm still going to stand by my arguement that if you have too open of an exhaust you will move your torque curve higher into the rpm range. I actually laughed when you talked about your 2.5 inch exhaust gaining you power. I should hope so, considering that now you have about the same size exhaust that all the 3rd Gens have. Congratulations...welcome to 2001.
 
WheelManATX said:
I don't like jumping in the middle of thing but, you do want some backpressure, It's Causes a suction effect to help draw the exhaust fumes out

here a good picture i found

bosalwv.gif

1. Escaping exhaust gas creates pressure wave moving down the system.

2. Wave hits the systems end, causing suction wave to travel back up the system.

3. Suction wave hits the cylinder and reverses direction just as the exhaust valve opens. The suction wave helps pull exhaust gases from the cylinder improving engine breathing and volumetric efficiency.
SIGH. Have you read anything I've typed? "Pressure wave" and "Back pressure" are two different things. The exhaust valves open before the piston is at Bottom Dead Center. Which means there is still combustion happening. That exhaust valve 'event' cause a Pressure Wave to exit the combustion chamber and move down the exhaust. The Pressure Wave moves at the speed of sound, and just like your little bit of information says, it creates a negative(suction) wave that helps pull gases from the cylinder. As those gases are pulled from the cylinder, the also create a vacuum in the cylinder. During valve overlap, this help pull a fresh clean intake charge into the cylinder. This is called SCAVAGING, which I believe I already mentioned. This process is AIDED by having a free flowing exhaust with little or no back pressure.

Putting a cork in your muffler would create backpressure, and wouldn't allow any of this to happen. Once again, I repeat. YOU NEVER WANT ANY BACKPRESSURE, IT'S ALL ABOUT VELOCITY.
 
xelderx said:
Fair enough, but I'm still going to stand by my arguement that if you have too open of an exhaust you will move your torque curve higher into the rpm range. I actually laughed when you talked about your 2.5 inch exhaust gaining you power. I should hope so, considering that now you have about the same size exhaust that all the 3rd Gens have. Congratulations...welcome to 2001.
Can someone do us a favour, and inform us what the stock exhaust piping diameter is? Mine was 1 7/8". Which is either the same, or very close to the sizing of the new cars. xelderx, say what you want about my car being old, or having thin exhaust, but I baselined at 111whp. Most new ones baseline at 100-105.
 
Gen1GT said:
This process is AIDED by having a free flowing exhaust with little or no back pressure.

Putting a cork in your muffler would create backpressure, and wouldn't allow any of this to happen. Once again, I repeat. YOU NEVER WANT ANY BACKPRESSURE, IT'S ALL ABOUT VELOCITY.
Did anyone else catch the contradiction there?

Gen1GT said:
xelderx, say what you want about my car being old, or having thin exhaust, but I baselined at 111whp. Most new ones baseline at 100-105.
I'm not even going to start the "depends on what dyno you used" discussion.
 
Gen1GT said:
SIGH. Have you read anything I've typed?

No not really, too much of this (bicker) , no one really cares as long as it works, you both can go install your talked about setups and then go dyno them......
 
When I had my civic, I ran a 4-1 SS header, with NO exhaust. It had a huge 2.5 inch collector that didn't fit on my stock exhaust. Before I would make boost, the car had less torque than stock? Why is that? Because motors need backpressure? Oddly enough, the less backpressure an exhaust has, the less "scavanging" it does too. Also, the less backpressure the less velocity it had too.
 
I gutted my 1st cat.... I noticed some more power but mainly it revved faster. Now with future plans for a header i might have 2 primary cats available... one is still in working condition and the other has been turned into a "off-road" down pipe :D
One advantage of gutted cats is that if u have emissions issues u can always swap the empty one for the intact one and pass emissions. However u still need the MIl eliminator for that. The 2nd cat is an obstruction too i guess but not as much as the first.
 
If I recall correctly, the 3rd Gen's exhaust is just slightly over 2". As far as gutting your cat is concrerned, if you really want to get rid of it, do it properly. Weld in a section of pipe to replace the entire thing, or if you need it for a visual inspection, cut open the case, gut it, then weld in a piece of pipe inside and weld the case back together. By gutting it and leaving the case as is, you create a large area of low pressure which then bottlenecks back into the outlet of the cat. This wrecks havoc on exhaust velocity, which is very important! I'm not going to get into the backpressure argument, although most of the reading I've done says a small amount is good for N/A motors, but you want zero on a FI motor.
 
Replica said:
When I had my civic, I ran a 4-1 SS header, with NO exhaust. It had a huge 2.5 inch collector that didn't fit on my stock exhaust. Before I would make boost, the car had less torque than stock? Why is that? Because motors need backpressure? Oddly enough, the less backpressure an exhaust has, the less "scavanging" it does too. Also, the less backpressure the less velocity it had too.
It's not backpressure that gives cars with smaller exhaust more torque, it's being able to maintain exhaust velocity at low RPM. At low RPM, there isn't much backpressure in ANY car, since there's not a whole lot of gas being forced out the pipes. But gas IS being forced out nontheless. The same amount of gases have to exit the tailpipe if you have 2" or 2.5" exhaust. They have the same amount of time to do it too, so with 2" exhaust, velocity has to be higher than in the 2.5" piping to get the same amount of gases out. This increased velocity at low RPM is what allows for low RPM scavaging. Faster moving gases will pull more intake charge into the combustion chamber. A well designed 2" exhaust system, with free flowing cat, resonator and muffler made with mandrel bends will lower backpressure over a 2" system with crimped bends, stock cat and resonator and the restrictive muffler. This system, because of it's smoother and more free-flowing insides, will give you less backpressure AS WELL AS more velocity. You will actually increase torque at low RPM even though it has less backpressure. This system will have very high velocity at higher RPM, but at a certain point, it won't be able to flow the VOLUME of air needed to support high RPM power, and you will start to lose power.

2.5" exhaust is extreme for a small 4 cyl engine. With larger piping, at low RPM, you have very little exhaust velocity. This means that it will not scavage very well. Due to the Bernoulli effect, the 2.5" exhaust may even have MORE backpressure than the 2" free flowing exhaust I described(Faster moving air, has less pressure. Slow moving air has more pressure). Low exhaust velocity and higher backpressure means lower power and torque at low RPMs.

As RPMs rise, the extreme free flowing nature of the 2.5" exhaust allows the engine to flow more air and have very little backpressure at high RPM(wheras the restrictions in the 2" exhaust will start to choke the engine), and aid in high RPM scavaging.

With my 2.5" exhaust, I lost 3hp between 2500-3000rpm(but who cares?), maintained peak torque at 4500rpm and gained power up high(above 6000rpm), and got 5hp at 7000rpm. I traded high for low. If I went for 2.25" exhaust, i would have probably gained 2-3hp over the entire rev range, with lower gains down low than I would get up top.

I decided to go with 2.5" exhaust because of the extreme mods I have planned(cams, bored throttle body, head work, intake manifold work etc). With all that work, a 2.25" exhaust would be restrictive at 8000rpm. 2" exhaust just wouldn't be able to flow enough air at that RPM.

recap

small diameter tubing=good velocity at low RPM, high RPM restriction, good low RPM scavaging(ie, better Volumetric efficiency and more torque)
large diameter tubing=poor velocity at low RPm, high velocity and low restriction at high RPM, poor low RPM scavaging, good high RPM scavaging(ie better Volumetric efficency and more power)

sidenote:hp is a factor of torque, mutliplied by RPM. High RPM power, is the same as high RPM torque, and low RPM power is the same thing as low RPM torque

Once again, backpressure is extremely undesirable under EVERY circumstance. It's not backpressure that gets smaller diamter exhaust equipted cars torque...it's VELOCITY.
 
sidenote:hp is a factor of torque, mutliplied by RPM. High RPM power, is the same as high RPM torque, and low RPM power is the same thing as low RPM torque

well, im definately going to have to disagree here. hp does not equal torque. not even near the same. take some physics classes before you get in this argument.
*horsepower - Abbr. hp A unit of power in the U.S. Customary System, equal to 745.7 watts or 33,000 foot-pounds per minute.
*torque - The moment of a force; the measure of a force's tendency to produce torsion and rotation about an axis, equal to the vector product of the radius vector from the axis of rotation to the point of application of the force and the force vector.
A turning or twisting force.
 
Wow, you guys are just CRAZY with misinformation aren't you?

HP=Torque*RPM/5252

This is why in every dyno chart, hp and torque are equal at 5252RPMs.

Dynos don't measure HP, they measure torque. When you know torque you can figure out what hp is. All a dyno does is measure torque at MANY plots throughout the rev range. Look at my attached dyno chart. Take that 82.2lb/ft I'm making at 7000RPM. Now, mutiply that number by 7000. Now divide by 5252. What number did you come up with?

HP is a rating of how much work is being done. You can have torque and be doing NO work. ie. Take a spring and wind it up in a circular motion. Now hold that spring. Keep holding it. Torque is being applied, but no work is being done. Now, release that spring, and you have work. Name your unit, hp, watts etc...but work is being done, because you're factoring that torque over time. Same with an engine. HP is how much torque your car makes in a specific amount of time. The faster your car can make torque, the more hp you have.

LOL, it even says in your definition of hp, "33,000ft/lbs per minute"
 

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yes, i understand. im not stupid. i know you can figure hp from torque and vice versa. duh. you said its the same thing. "High RPM power, is the same as high RPM torque, and low RPM power is the same thing as low RPM torque." what the hell are you talking about? just because they are RELATED does not mean they are in any way the same.
 
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oh, and im not arguing with your backpressure/scavenging deal, because most of it is correct. it is all about velocity. however, some of your arguments are contradicting. and anyways, how the **** did all this come from a gutted cat question?=)
 
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