Another Audio "I need help" thread...

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99 pro ES Silver heavily modified
First, thanks in advance to whoever takes the time to read this and answer. Second, I have read the Audio FAQ. Helpful.

What I want:
A decent system with decent bump, for not too much money. I listen to mostly electronica (techno, trance, etc), some occasional rock, some classical. I like to be consumed by the music, not have a front soundstage effect. I like clarity and quality. I consider my self to have above average ears for quality/defects/interference/range. My car is currently taken apart for several mods I am working on, so I want to get the wiring done now, at minimum. Since I have the amp I am also looking to put the rear door speakers in now.

What I am willing to spend:
-around $100 on door speakers
-whatever the cost is on decent, slightly above average components.

What I have:
-JVC KD-SX990 deck (50Wx4)
-Infinity Reference 5x7s up front, 6x9s on the rear deck - installed and working
-Orion Xtreme 500.4 amp, 50Wx4 - not installed (got it for $50 used)
-Ipod through aux input on deck
-XM Satellite Radio also through aux input, shortly through aux input converter for the CD changer input
-Soon to have the new podbuddy from MacMice in April for car mount (has a jack for aux input use as well)

What I am planning:
-Install 6.5" speakers in the door, probably stick with Infinity Reference. I like them, but a tad bright. This is in question, though.
-Install either 2 8"s, or 1 10" subwoofer(s), likely in a sealed enclosure for the flat response. I don't porting for the purpose of tuning to a frequency is necessary (don't want anything super loud, and I listen to different music), again, just looking for a little bump.
-Mount plugs in the enclosure so I can take it out for autocrosses, luggage, etc
-Run 14g wires to the front/rear doors and to rear deck
-mount the amp on the back of one of the rear seats, or under the passenger seat
-Run an 8 gauge power line to the amp (max of 400W in the system)
-Install replacement terminals on the battery (Optima red top) for cleaner power and ground

What I am asking for help with:
-Are 2 8" subs more than I need, or would one do? Or is 1 10" a better solution? I read the option of installing a couple mid-bass drivers in the rear doors, and I am wondering if that would be good enough instead of subs. Just how much bump to they produce?
-What kind of terminals should I use?
-Should I continue with Infinity Reference series in the rear doors? Or should I look for something a little less bright to offset the current brightness (which isn't bad, just a touch too bright)
-How should I wire the setup: current speakers on the deck, new speakers on the amp? That way it can still control front/rear (sort of). Or should I set all the rear speakers on the amp? I don't know what's best for this.
-Last, what's a good source/vendor for all this stuff? I am leaning towards RE for the subs, which will be purchased down the road.
 
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So you're looking to run all 6 speakers atonce? AS far as clarity, etc goes, truely the more sound and power int he back setup really throws thigns off, primarily because you'll be getting sound from so many different sources that things will be randomly in and out of phase meaning sometiems you get cancellation, sometimes it adds to itself.

Thatsaid, if you really want just lots of speakers, Yes, I would, indeed stick with the same all around. infact, do it quick, before the new models come aorund. Also, I'd recommend goign for 5-1/4's in the back doors. you WILL have to trim the surronds on your door panel to fit a 6.5 refrence without damaging the speaker's surround. Personally, if you're looking to amplify 4 channels, I'd amp the front, and rear doors, and then let the deck power the 6x9's. Especially if you think your speakers are already bright, 6x9's bouncing off the rear window and right at you can get harsh amplified...

For subs, I've always been a fan of a single sub of better quality over a pair. you'll pretymuch get the same sound as a pair of 8's from a single 10, ifnot more from the 10. Another reason for more sub would be that you can always back it off, you can't add more bass to not enough sub as easily.

Also, don't worry about the midbass inthe rear door thing. It's possible, but doing it right would require Tons of time, effort and money and in the end you're really not going to have alotof output
 
Excellent. Thanks. I was wondering about the 6.5s in the rear door, when the hole is 5.5". But people were saying...

Any idea on terminals/wiring? Or does it not make that much of a difference?

So a couple more Infinity Reference series? Or go from something with a little more bass?
 
Well the actual hole in the door will fit a 6.5, but there'sa trim ring that extends back from the doorpanel that will windup resting on the surrounds of 6.5's without you even noticing it, but it will cut right through them if you allow them to play likethat...

As far as going with a diff speaker to add bass, no just go with the refrences, otherwise you wind up with different tones coming from different speakers all around you which'll make every extra speaker very noticeable, and definately make things sound strange. You want speakers of similar tonality all around... thatway a note sounds the same coming from each one if that makes any sense.

If you're planning on adding some sort of a sub, you don't need to worry aobut getting bass outta your mid/hi speakers. If you want to try without a sub, then going to 6.5's might help a bit, then you can trim back the plastic rings in your rear door ad they'll fit jsut fine. As for wiring, I've yet to check, but I truely believe that sedans may be pre-wired, I can't say for sure, but the clips for my rear speakers had a little nub like the doorpanel holding plastic "pop" dealies and a nearby blank hole to push it into just to keep it out of the way. If you DO windup needing to run wire, check my door wiring guide, it's actually easier for rear doors because you can get at both sides of the connection much easier... I'll see if I can digup the pics I took when I ran 4conducter wire backthere for my window control modules.
 
I looked for your wiring guide, and found the front door guide, nothing for the rears. Is that what you mean?

I would have no problem trimming the gauge ring, dremel in hand... Will I have to make baffles to fit the 6.5s?

I am not finding any wiring other than window/door lock wiring. The sedans of my year didn't have the 6-speaker option at buy time. I'm just glad they made holes.
 
I'm ordering stuff from crutchfield.com (they carry the aux input adapter for my deck). Is 50' of wire enough to wire all the speakers? (4 doors to the HU, rear deck and subs to the amp in the back?)
 
sorry, I just caught that you said to run the front 4 off the amp, and 6x9s and sub off the head unit? wouldn't the amp be better off powering the sub and something else? or are you suggesting a different amp for the sub?
 
1 questions:
Have you ever been at home watching TV and you all of a sudden wanted to add 2 full range speakers on the floor, behind your couche? Thats exactly what rear door speakers amount too.
In other words, adding rear door speakers is an incredible waste of time and money.

You want to match all of your speakers. They should be all the same brand and series if possible. The exception to this is if you are going to use the rears as fill only, in which case they can be anything as they will be barely audible. If you don't like somethng about the infinities, then now is the time to go to a store and compare some other models. Buy something you like the sound of instead.

You will want to have your 4 channel powering the front speakers and the subwoofers. Do not power the rears with more then deck power. The rear 6x9s being mounted up high are going to be much louder per watt then the speakers in your front doors.
2 8's have never been enough for me. Get the 10".
 
Thanks for the advice. A question for you:

What is bad about have the extra sound behind me? I know a lot of people are big on the front soundstage setup, but not I. I like to be completely surrounded by the music. Plus, if they don't work, I put em in the wife's XTerra.

I love the Infinity's. My only complaint is they are a tad bright at times. A minor flaw.
 
Like I said, when have you ever been watching TV and wanted to have speakers on the floor behind your couche?

Rear door speakers will do nothing to add sound to the car. The 6x9's are more then capable of doing that on there own and with almost no power going to them since they are up so high. In reality, the extra rear speakers won't even add 3 db, at that when they are in perfect phase with everything else. Unfortunitly since you will have 4 other speakers on different planes, it will just add to cancelations and you won't even get the 3 db. So your spending time and money to make your car sound like ass.
Liking the sound behind is fine, but do you really want sound that you won't hear worth a damn anyways and will only subtract sound overall from the system?

The common mistake people make when thinking about car audio is that more speakers equate to a louder system. This is only true if they are all properly setup and powered. Which means that all speakers playing the same sound have to be on the same plane and powered the same. Take SPL vehicals as an example. 5 years ago people would have 18 a5" subwoofers in a ton of odd arrangements just to pack them in. Those guys never made much bass at all. Then People realized that 4 15"s could produce WAY more bass if they where all kept on the same plane. Thats why the best SPL vehicals now typly have one wall of a few subwoofers. This shows that sound is not purely addative. Sound is simply the pressurising and unpressurising of air molecules. Thats all it is. If one speaker pressuraizes the air in a given space while the other is depressurising it, then the cancel out. This is the case of alot of speakers playing the same frequencies that are not mounted on the same plane.

The rear speakers will work, they will produce sound, but it will not be better or really even louder sound. Truthfully, its completely hack and something that best buy and other bad places push to sell more product. Take that money and buy a more powerful amplifier for the fronts so the 6x9s don't drowned them out.
 
This is why 1sty is the man, Everything he said was in my head, but I couldn't find the words to get itout, and mostly I'm tired of fighting for things...

Try a front-heavy setup, try listening to someone's perhaps... I'm sure there's someone aroudn where you live who'd be glad to let you wrap your ears around their car for a bit... EVERYONE swears they like to be "wrapped in sound" because that's what we're soo heavily conditioned to believe is right. I don't know how many badass stereos my friends've had with a heavily amped pair of 6x9's in boxes sitting on the back deck. But in reality, once you know better, the world is a much nicer place... You'd be amased by how clean and clearly you can hear things. fingers sliding on strings of a guitar, one violinist in an orchestra slipping for a tick. a saxaphone player accidentally blip a bit of a note off before he realizes he's started too early... Sure it's bad, but it's amazing to be able tohear it. It's truely incredible the details you can really pickout when your setup properly...

Heck ask any of the knowing ones in any audio forum about their rear speakers and shy of those getting into 5.1, etc, you'll be hardup to find may who even have rear speakers hookedup at all. Again, cancellation, etc. create such a headache, especially in the car environment, that it's next to impossible to mingle them properly...

And seriosuly, as far as brightness, I've always considered refrences to be fairly mellow, and a fairly pleasing sound for the price. You might want to look into getting some components for upfront with and adjustment on the crossover for variable tweeter attenuation, shoot for silk tweets, and make sure you keep them down low. Variable attenuation also helps because you never know how your taste will change. I've always felt my tunes to be lacking midrange and especially midbass, but now that I've got that, I'm currently in theprocess of seeking out crisper highs.

If you're still deadset on putting more speakers in your car, then so beit, but to quote 1sty form another thread, we don't Want you to become "that guy" They walk into the stereo shop all the time. They're soo deadset on swearing how dope their system is that you really have no choice but to just smile and nod, and shake your head when they leave.

You've obviosuly gota bit of funds to play with, we really just want tohelp steer you the right direction. If this is a step you need to hear for yourself and learn, sobeit, but keep an open mind about it, and know that there's a better sounding world out there.
 
Interesting turn the thread has taken. You guys sound exasperated already. I don't recall stating that I am dead set on the rear speakers, nor am I fighting for it, just looking to enhance what I have, and a little more on the bass end, really. For the noob like me, it seems logical to add a set of speakers close to the driver. You guys are obviously highly against that, and for good reasons. However, most of the advice on the thread seems to be towards a front soundstage set up, and I don't want the sound in front of me, so I was trying to avoid that. It's not like my living room where I have 5.1 to give me the directional sounds to put me in the experience, just 2 channels, left and right. I want them to be balanced front and back.

1sty, I don't get your point about putting speakers on the floor behind the couch. I have a 5.1 system that has them up on the walls, behind the couch, so restating the same sentence doesn't help clarify. Are you saying it's good to put them on the floor? Or are you saying that you never do want them there? Is this in the absence of 5.1 with just TV speakers, or with 5.1?

-It seems that I should just put my amp on the front doors and rear 6x9s, and then add a second amp to run a 10 in the trunk. Is that what you are saying?
-If I want to put more money into it, then I should just upgrade the speakers all around? For instance, components in the front (the reference 5.25 has a little swiveling tweeter monted on there for directional, which I have aimed right at the people sitting in the seats) in which I would mount the tweeters up high on the door? I believe the younger pro's have little pods for this, mine doesn't.
-Will my Orion Xtreme 500.4 50wx4 provide any significant improvement over the JVC deck output?
-One more question: can you fit 6.5s in the front doors? or should I go to 6x8 components?
 
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a good set of front components will surround you, just cause it is called a "front stage" doesnt mean it will sound like it is all coming from the front

having the 6x9's will add fill from the rears as well

i would spend the money you were gonna use on rear door speakers on a better amp and better components for the front

use the orion amp to power the front components and 6x9's

buy a seperate mono or 2 channel(bridgable) amp to power the sub

you can fit 6.5" in the front doors with an adaptor
 
Power the fronts, don't worry about powering your 6x9's If you think you've got bright now, you'll really dislike amped 6x9's, they'll wind up being painful.

And, umm, yes front is what we're talking about. Are your STEREO speakers at home directly to each side of you? Surround sound is different, then, directional is good, yes, however atthat, Ideally all your speakers should be at ear-height...

Again, do what you wish, it's your car, but wrapped in sound or no, unless you've got some form of digital time delay capability, you're not helping your sound tryng to get accurate stereo sound from more than 2 speaker sources.


fronts will, indeed fit a 6.5, ifnot larger it's just a matter of makign the baffles for it.

Flat out reccomendation.
Amp your fronts, leave rears deck powered and get a decent 10" sub. you'll be happy, I promise.
 
Again, thanks for everybody's help.

I cancelled the speakers part of the order pending recommendations. For now I will hook up the amp to the fronts, probably put it under the seat.

I am looking at these infinity reference <a href="http://www.infinitysystems.com/caraudio/product.aspx?ProdId='REF6000CS'&Ser=REF&Cat=COS">REF6000CS</a>. Is crutchfield.com a good place to buy these? They have them at $160. Same price as circuit city. I just don't know audio vendors very well. I will also do some research.

That's about all the money I could spend on these at this point. For now I will use the Orion. Any suggested amps? Should I get an amp in the future to power the fronts and the sub? or stick with two different amps?
 
OK I'll clarify


glyph said:
For the noob like me, it seems logical to add a set of speakers close to the driver.
Click to expand...
This is where your idea takes a bad turn, the rear door speakers are close to your ass not your ears. So they aren't actualy that close to the part of you that matters, the rear deck speakers are closure.

Lets go back to my analigy of putting speakers behind your couche on the floor. Would anyone ever do that? Hell no. You'd barely hear them, and what you did hear would be muttled, and screw up the sound of the other speakers. If you think about the rear door speakers in a protege, they are down by your butt and behind you, so using them would be like putting speakers on the floor behind your couch for your system at home. Like I mentioned before, it would be in no way advantagous.


glyph said:
You guys are obviously highly against that, and for good reasons. However, most of the advice on the thread seems to be towards a front soundstage set up, and I don't want the sound in front of me, so I was trying to avoid that.
Click to expand...

I am in no way trying to get you to forget about the rears or the want to envelope yourself in sound. I understand some people like that. That is why I say keep the 6x9s. The 6x9s are at ear level though and rather close to you, because of this they will be very loud with almost no power to them. In fact, if you don't amplify your fronts considerably the rear 6x9s' alone and only running deck power will easily drowned out the fronts. SO the system will not have the balance you want.

glyph said:
It's not like my living room where I have 5.1 to give me the directional sounds to put me in the experience, just 2 channels, left and right. I want them to be balanced front and back.
Click to expand...
Yes and no:
Its true you don't have different tracks of audio for the rears. However, the concept of speaker placement remains the same in either application. Lets do an exercise. Think about the layout of the car compared to your HT for a second. The car is basicly just a 5 foot wide by 5 foot long room with you sitting in the center left. So lets pretend the car is just that, a very small retangular room. Now place your speakers within that room like they are in the car. The fronts would be in the walls, down in the front cornsers near the floor, but they are in the side walls, facing 90 degrees away from you. The rear door speakers would be in the same walls, at the same height, but are behind your chair. The rear deck speakers would be like 2 inwall speakers on the wall behind you, installed at ear level and firing directly at your head.

Now do you see what you don't want rear speakers and you will need to amplify the fronts to achieve a balance from front to back?

glyph said:
1sty, I don't get your point about putting speakers on the floor behind the couch. I have a 5.1 system that has them up on the walls, behind the couch, so restating the same sentence doesn't help clarify. Are you saying it's good to put them on the floor? Or are you saying that you never do want them there? Is this in the absence of 5.1 with just TV speakers, or with 5.1?
Click to expand...
I am saying, and have said that it would be dumb for someone to put speakers on the floor behind there couche, be they part of a 5.1 system or other wise. A speaker on the floor behind your couche corrisponds to your rear door speaker locations in a car, in refence to you, they would be in the same position.

- Power the front speakers and the subwoofer, do NOT power the rear 6x9's
- Take the money you would spend on rear door speakers and do anything else with it you like, throwing it in a fire would be money well spend comapred to buying rear door speakers.
- Yes, the orion amp will be much better then the JVC deck to power the speakers. Use the front channels to power your front speakers and bridge the rear channel to power your subwoofer.
- Yes, 6.5" speakers can be installed in the front doors by using a simple adapter.
 
glyph said:
Again, thanks for everybody's help.

I cancelled the speakers part of the order pending recommendations. For now I will hook up the amp to the fronts, probably put it under the seat.

I am looking at these infinity reference REF6000CS. Is crutchfield.com a good place to buy these? They have them at $160. Same price as circuit city. I just don't know audio vendors very well. I will also do some research.

That's about all the money I could spend on these at this point. For now I will use the Orion. Any suggested amps? Should I get an amp in the future to power the fronts and the sub? or stick with two different amps?
Click to expand...

Ininfity is one of those companies tht in no way price protects there dealers, meaning they will let anyone sell them to anyone for anything they want. Because of this you can find them all over the net for alot less then retail which is what crutchfield and CC sell at:
http://www.cardomain.com/item/INFREF6000CS
Save some cake, the site is extreamly reputable. I do buisness with them all the time. In fact I just recieved an order from them today.

When ever you buy online though, be sure that you are buying from an authorized reseller, otherwise, you will not get a factory warrenty.
 
ha you guys write such long posts i beat you too it by being vague and non descriptive:)

however if he uses the orion amp to power the 6x9's he could increase/decrease their level on the amp

depending on how it is set up i suppose he could use the fader in the HU to adjust the level, but i think powering them from the amp would give better bass/midrange than the HU can provide

just my last 2 cents on this thread, good luck:)
 
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