A thought

[LinuxRacr]

BTW, I found out yesterday that the MSP has the same injectors as the regular sedans and the MP3. The way they are able to run the fuel pressure they do is that the ECU has a different mapping going on to control the pulsewith, and there is no FMU.

Here it comes. :bs: (flame2) (bicker)

 

[perfworks]

there have been some good points here but alot of you are failing to realize how FMU's work.....they do not add fuel pressure above your stock fuel pressure.....there is a formual to determine what PSI you are running but I cannot remember it at this time but basically if you run a 12:1 FMU at 4 lbs of boost it would create 48 psi of pressure now this is not 48 psi above the stock fuel pressure it only goes over the stock fuel pressure once it has passed it in its own ratio. when someone runs 6 psi on a 12:1 FMU they are now running at a 72 psi fuel pressure at 7 psi 84 psi of fuel pressure....our fuel pumps in the protege start to max out their flow capabliities at around 75 psi....then above that they do not really flow anymore fuel just generate more pressure. I'm running 2 440cc auxilary injectors which will yield a 175 hp capability of fueling....so basically I can have up to 297 hp at the crank with my 2 injectors in the charge piping and not have to touch my fuel pressure. FMU's kill i hate them adn will not use them again.....if I need more fuel once tuning is done then I will get some bigger injectors and a standalone later once i get forged internals but for right now 297 hp is exceeding what my stock block is capable of so it will suffice for me at this point.

sorry i didnt clarify kooldinos statement about the fuel.
alot to rite about that day. but explain something to me. if im not mistaken why is the fmu from terry being mounted before the stock regulator?
second, the vortech fmu has a base pressure it runs without boost right?
the stock pumps should not be used at those pressures like you say. thats what i mentioned earlier. i was under the impression that they were using inlines to help the stock output.
NOW THE REASON YOU CANT RUN OVER 8 PSI IS TWO FOLD. NUMBER ONE because of the stock pump output is limited .NUMBER TWO the fact that the injectors are NOT large enough to run more boost. if you want to stay at safe fuel pressures, and still run an fmu for atomization qualities then you need to upgrade injectors.
any way,
thats almost the exact same set up i chose.
2 440cc's on the intake track right before the throttle body. 370's on the line.
by the way CH i agree with you but i like a little more fuel pressure for a better spray pattern and the use of 4 nozzle injectors in the intake.

 

[perfworks]

fmu's for anything above 7-8psi is suicide. Even with bigger injectors and tons of fuel. People are failing to remember its not all fuel. If you go over 7psi the advanced stock timing plays a big influence regarding detonation.
So the moral of the story is dont run over 8 psi without proper timing retard and fuel

the issue of timing i agree with one hundred percent
i have also mentioned and STRESSED this umpteen times.

fmus if used properly in your set up are very advantagious; not suiside 7-8 psi max(like i mentioned this umpteen times) is meant for the stock injectors and pump in this protege application without going to a standalone and larger injectors only.

dont get me wrong i agree with the detonation theory because of peak cylinder pressures that occur at even 6 psi at the stock static compression in the 2.0l motor.
we just differ on the fmu thats all

just in case some get confused: the pressure of 7-8 psi he was mentioning on the fmu should not be compared with the 7 psi of BOST with detonation he mentions.

 

[perfworks]

From my "HONDA" experience, you can run the stock ECU 10-12psi no prob. Here is the reason why you can even with a P5! (for those who don't believe me):

-upgrade the injectors
-upgrade the fuel line (steel braided -8 or -10)
-fuel rail a must. Not sure if they are avail. but build one
-a REAL adjustable fuel pressure regulator (SX Engineering)
-inline fuel pump
-MSD Digital DIS ignition system
-MSD Plug Wires
-Cam Gears

With just those mods. I am very sure you can run higher boost on the P5 (above 7psi). This has been PROVEN for a long time. The MSD will handle the ignition systems requirment. You would use the cam gears for the cam timing. With those (2) items you can now pump more fuel into it. Now the fuel can be burned. Yeah, additional injectors would be a good route for added saftey. 10-12 psi isn't that what it is thought to be. Try tuning for 15+ psi. It seems like everyone is making it more complicated than it really is. You don't need to drop $1500+ for a standalone fuel managment system just to run 10psi. I dont care if our cars have "NO TIMING CONTROL" it can be done. Just be safe from the begining. I havn't seen anyone with all these mods just yet.


I am not trying to start a war, just making a true argument!

raz,
please dont take this the wrong way but we are first not dealing with a honda ecu or honda valve and ignition timing.
we have a base engine that was transformed with certain ecu sensors meant to pass emmisions . not for performance.
this is important to remember.

next in order from which you listed them:

1. i agree with the upgrade in injectors
2. my fuel line is stock and is plenty large enough to produce the hp #'s needed with gasoline as my fuel. if your talking alcohol. well......( just kidding) fuel line diameter is ok
3. why?? dont need it leave the stock system alone and build around it.
4. a real adjustable is available thru BEGI and vortech you just need to know how to match them to your application. if you want stock pressures then go to the one you are suggesting.
5. i agree
6. i wont get into it but it DOES NOT WORK WITH THE STOCK ECU.
7. i dont know about msd but upgraded wires are ok for high boost application. the stock arent bad if your not increasing the voltage in the system IMO its a waste of money
8. hard to get. this was earlier in the year so rite now i dont know
but a great idea.

also in regards to your quote that you have not seen any of theses mods on a p5 yet. please dont say things like "10 psi with out timing control is possible".
you really need to remember my top statement. this is not a honda and the proteges use a MAF not MAP so we dont have the luxury of using check valves to fool the computer and think it is under load all the time.
i understand what your saying to a point and you mean well BUT this ecu DOES NOT work with us that easily. we dont have the aftermarket support yet to lower that "1500.00$ " price tag

 

[perfworks]

You coudl change the coils but then the stock ECU would not be able to communicate with them so even with the DIS system from MSD it woudl do you no good without a signal from teh ECU for it to modify and the signal is made for our stock coils and our stock coils will not work with MSD systems.....I repeapt for the umpteen-billiononth time MSD SYSTEMS WILL NOT WORK IN OUR CARS PERIOD!!!!!! Do a freakin search and you will understand that.

the problem as CH said earlier too is that the ECU has a preprogramed MAP of the the ignition system with its stock coils.
any variastion from is NORMALLY "seen" by the ecu will trip a CEL. when that happens , in a component dealing with fuel or ignition , for prolonged period of time the ecu will go into limp mode
AKA no performance or anything. just basic drivability till you get the ecu reflashed or go back to normal values after disconnecting and reconnecting the battery

 

[perfworks]

BTW, I found out yesterday that the MSP has the same injectors as the regular sedans and the MP3. The way they are able to run the fuel pressure they do is that the ECU has a different mapping going on to control the pulsewith, and there is no FMU.

Here it comes. :bs: (flame2) (bicker)

linux , my comment about the MSP was just a guess from what i have heard around the forum. i should have checked to make sure. sorry.
please dont confuse pulse width with fuel pressure control from the ecu.
my question to you since i dont have a MSP is is the reg. the same?
and fuel pump the same?
i will find out today but just curios about exactly what is different about the fuel system in this car other than the ecu modification

no no flaming i did mention "i thought " the injectors were 310's

 

[1sty]

We all mentioned that as callaway press released that the MSp were going to be larger injectors and I believe they specificly said 310!

 

[LinuxRacr]

No problem Perf, I just found out myself yesterday.

 

[chdesign]

An FMU has no base pressure it will be a pass thru for the stock FPR it should be mounted post stock fuel pressure regulator. I agree that 4 injectors are better than 2 but at this point I do not have the funds to undergo such a project. Also if the injectors are the same then there is no fuel system differnece between teh stock Protege and the MSP just different fuel and timing maps. So knowing this now taking the MSP over the stock boost levels is highly risky i think.

 

[YP5 Toronto]

I will try to call my local dealership and ask them what the Part Number is for the MSP and the MP3 fuel injectors......that should clear things up.

if someone else can call their dealership, we could then get more confirmation.

 

[perfworks]

An FMU has no base pressure it will be a pass thru for the stock FPR it should be mounted post stock fuel pressure regulator. I agree that 4 injectors are better than 2 but at this point I do not have the funds to undergo such a project. Also if the injectors are the same then there is no fuel system differnece between teh stock Protege and the MSP just different fuel and timing maps. So knowing this now taking the MSP over the stock boost levels is highly risky i think.

the following is a quote from terry on the thread about " 8: 1 fmu good enough"
"""The FMU splices into the factory fuel line before it goes into the oem fuel rail. The top nipple connects to a vacuum line that will provide boost to the unit allowing it to increase fuel pressure when needed. The factory fuel line will need to be cut (fuel line coming from gas tank) this will be inserted in the intake of the FMU located under the unit. Then the outlet located on the side of the unit will connect to the factory fpr (fuel rail)"""""

correct me if im wrong but the stock regulator is at the END of the rail to control pressure against the injectors.
so the FMU will have to mount at the end of the rail? after the stock reg. right?
if there is no base pressure setting then and i pound of boost it will give 12 psi additional to WHAT fuel pressure. the pressure after the stock regulator is at what psi?
please clarify this because something doesnt sound rhgt from both sides of the story.

 

[perfworks]

An FMU has no base pressure it will be a pass thru for the stock FPR it should be mounted post stock fuel pressure regulator. I agree that 4 injectors are better than 2 but at this point I do not have the funds to undergo such a project. Also if the injectors are the same then there is no fuel system differnece between teh stock Protege and the MSP just different fuel and timing maps. So knowing this now taking the MSP over the stock boost levels is highly risky i think.

also CH let me again clear up what i meant sorry for the confusion. your set up is fine in my eyes. its the most logical for a fuel system that can be effective for performance and your wallet!
what i meant by the increased injectors was for the guys who want to keep the same kits they have and only upgrade the stock injectors one step up

 

[low_psi]

just a note, that's obvious to most of you, but a few ppl have skipped over this point: only the mp3 has advanced timing. turboing the other trim proteges should not involve timing retardation.

 

[chdesign]

Perf....a FMU should be placed on the return line after the stock Fuel Pressure regulator...these were the instructions given to me from Vortec when I did my first turbo install in my protege. All kits I have seen for hondas IE Drag so on and so on all tell you to put the FMU after the stock fuel pressure regulator on the return fuel line as the return fuel line is the line that regulates the amount of pressure the pump generates......if you place it on the feed line you coudl seriouly damage your motor.

 

[YP5 Toronto]

yes......the return line.....could you image the damage ?

 

[RAAZ227]

raz,
please dont take this the wrong way but we are first not dealing with a honda ecu or honda valve and ignition timing.
we have a base engine that was transformed with certain ecu sensors meant to pass emmisions . not for performance.
this is important to remember.

next in order from which you listed them:

1. i agree with the upgrade in injectors
2. my fuel line is stock and is plenty large enough to produce the hp #'s needed with gasoline as my fuel. if your talking alcohol. well......( just kidding) fuel line diameter is ok
3. why?? dont need it leave the stock system alone and build around it.
4. a real adjustable is available thru BEGI and vortech you just need to know how to match them to your application. if you want stock pressures then go to the one you are suggesting.
5. i agree
6. i wont get into it but it DOES NOT WORK WITH THE STOCK ECU.
7. i dont know about msd but upgraded wires are ok for high boost application. the stock arent bad if your not increasing the voltage in the system IMO its a waste of money
8. hard to get. this was earlier in the year so rite now i dont know
but a great idea.

also in regards to your quote that you have not seen any of theses mods on a p5 yet. please dont say things like "10 psi with out timing control is possible".
you really need to remember my top statement. this is not a honda and the proteges use a MAF not MAP so we dont have the luxury of using check valves to fool the computer and think it is under load all the time.
i understand what your saying to a point and you mean well BUT this ecu DOES NOT work with us that easily. we dont have the aftermarket support yet to lower that "1500.00$ " price tag

perf!!

totaly with you on this. I see that you hear what I am saying tho. And no I'm not taking it to offense. Yeah I have delt with Hondas for a long time and there is a big difference between the two. I had to satisfy myself with calling MSD. I have heard, that there is no way to run the MSD, because of our coil situation. And NO I'm not saying 10psi without timing control. I must have not gotten that across right. Mitsubishi uses a similar system to ours. Then again they run a turbo stock, so the ECU is prepared for retarding the ignition. The Protege can't be the first car with this issue. It takes good resources to figure out how to boost our cars to our liking (besides running an aftermarket ECU). But maybe the new Spool Ecu will have to do for now. Before that is availible I am going to run as much as I can safley. We will be tunning with Jobe from Turbo People in upstate NY. So I'm hoping that we can get good numbers from it safley. Answer for your question #4!!

-The FMU (that comes with the kit handles the stock fuel pressure under boost with the stock ignition (rising rate regulator). i.e. drag turbo kit, jackson racing supercharger supplies them also. The SX Engineering is for tuning beyond that point. Allowing you to run beyond that stock 50-55psi fuel pressure @ idle.

 

[perfworks]

Perf....a FMU should be placed on the return line after the stock Fuel Pressure regulator...these were the instructions given to me from Vortec when I did my first turbo install in my protege. All kits I have seen for hondas IE Drag so on and so on all tell you to put the FMU after the stock fuel pressure regulator on the return fuel line as the return fuel line is the line that regulates the amount of pressure the pump generates......if you place it on the feed line you coudl seriouly damage your motor.

CH i agree with you dont get me wrong .
my comment was from some misinformation which im sure was not intentional but still given. some of the gys on here actually think they are supposed to be mounting this fmu before the rail. seriously!
as far as myself not to sound rude i know of the mode of operation. ive been doing this for about ten years now but that doesnt mean i know every thing.
i ask as many questions as i also answer so i can learn like evryone else. but if there are things i know i will stick to my guns on it.
there are many misconceptions i have noticed in the past week with alot of modes of operation from the ecu to fuel to ignition. i am trying to clear some of these up.

 

[perfworks]

yes......the return line.....could you image the damage ?

hmmm?

 

[perfworks]

just a note, that's obvious to most of you, but a few ppl have skipped over this point: only the mp3 has advanced timing. turboing the other trim proteges should not involve timing retardation.

timing retard is important in ANY boosted application. your dealing with denser mixtures when you are boosted. denser mixtures reqire a later spark to prevent detonation.
i under stand that the mp3 ecu's have this condition but every turbo set up in the world has to worry about timing advance when cylinder pressures are at there highest.