2013 CX-9 Grand Touring - P0016 — Timing Chain

[gurulee]

The check engine light came on recently on my 2013 Mazda CX-9 Grand Touring with 136,000 miles on it. I'm also hearing a rattling around the same time when I accelerate. The diagnostic code is p0016 And The mechanic Said all other sensors are reporting good/no issue. The vehicle is very clean and in great condition.
I called eight different auto mechanics in my area and only two were willing to look at it. One told me to sell it, but he would do the job if I really wanted for $4,500.
A second mechanic gave me an estimate over the phone for $3,600 and said that could change depending what they find inside the engine when they opened it up.
I really want to repair this vehicle and keep it for at least another 2 years, especially with used and new car inventory and prices being horrible right now.
* oil looks okay and I don't see any evidence of water in it.
* no obvious loss of power
* rattling noise when moderately accelerating
* no noticeable water evidence in oil
* idle a little rough at times
* downshift rough at times when cold.

Can someone on this forum give me advice and or share their experience if they had gone through this?
Also, what the likelihood is of bigger problems presenting themselves when they open up the engine for the timing chain job?

 

[jal142]

That code can be caused by a few things:
1. The variable valve timing (VVT) actuators can sometimes go bad. When one starts to go bad, the timing between the camshaft with the bad VVT actuator and crankshaft can get out of whack, which is the code you are seeing.

2. The water pump is going out. The water pump is driven by the timing chain and acts like an idler. If the pump develops any play in the shaft it can sometimes cause this code.

3. Failed timing chain tensioner

4. Stretched timing chain

Unfortunately, you basically have to open up the timing cover of the engine to diagnose what exactly is wrong, and that takes many hours of work. The parts aren't terribly expensive once you get there. The $3600 estimate is basically to crack open the engine and replace the offending VVT actuator. While you are there, however, you should do the pump at a minimum.

Personally, I'd get an oil analysis done ASAP and verify the oil is clean. If it is, and the car is truly in great shape, it's probably worth it to fix.

 

[gurulee]

That code can be caused by a few things:
1. The variable valve timing (VVT) actuators can sometimes go bad. When one starts to go bad, the timing between the camshaft with the bad VVT actuator and crankshaft can get out of whack, which is the code you are seeing.

2. The water pump is going out. The water pump is driven by the timing chain and acts like an idler. If the pump develops any play in the shaft it can sometimes cause this code.

3. Failed timing belt tensioner

4. Stretched timing chain

Unfortunately, you basically have to open up the timing cover of the engine to diagnose what exactly is wrong, and that takes many hours of work. The parts aren't terribly expensive once you get there. The $3600 estimate is basically to crack open the engine and replace the offending VVT actuator. While you are there, however, you should do the pump at a minimum.

Personally, I'd get an oil analysis done ASAP and verify the oil is clean. If it is, and the car is truly in great shape, it's probably worth it to fix.

Thank you so much for your timely response and expert opinion. Yeah I'm trying to decide if it's worth fixing and it doesn't help that it's a correlated code could be multiple causes. I will look into getting an oil analysis done ASAP.
I'm wondering if anyone else had same issue as me and what the outcome was if they chose the path of repairing it?

If I can get two more years out of this car, I'm willing to spend up to 4,000.

 

[edmaz]

Do you live anywhere inside the rust belt, where the roads get salted when it snows?

 

[gurulee]

Do you live anywhere inside the rust belt, where the roads get salted when it snows?

The car was in CT for 5yrs and now it's down south (not near beach)

 

[edmaz]

The car was in CT for 5yrs and now it's down south (not near beach)

Interesting and unusual mixed bag there. It's possible that your vehicle has minimal impact from rust, depending on how quickly and how well the brine was removed from it during those 5 years. So do you know what the condition of your vehicle's underside is in, relative to rusting suspension and steering parts? I'm asking because the amount of rust can be a key factor in your decision to try keeping a vehicle of this age for 2 more years (taking potential additional future repairs into consideration).

 

[PTguy]

Just a note...jal, roller chains don't stretch.* The pins & bushings wear resulting in looseness, loss of strength, and, yes, lengthening due to the larger diameter holes in the bushings and smaller diameter pins.

*And, an under-spec, overloaded roller chain can have some stretch in the plates before it comes to an early death. Timing chains aren't under spec nor overloaded.

 

[gurulee]

Interesting and unusual mixed bag there. It's possible that your vehicle has minimal impact from rust, depending on how quickly and how well the brine was removed from it during those 5 years. So do you know what the condition of your vehicle's underside is in, relative to rusting suspension and steering parts? I'm asking because the amount of rust can be a key factor in your decision to try keeping a vehicle of this age for 2 more years (taking potential additional future repairs into consideration).

The undercarriage is solid and in great condition. I regularly brought it through the car wash in CT and hit underside.

 

[gurulee]

If my oil analysis comes back clean/good. Do ya'll think I should take my chances and bring it in for timing chain and water pump replacement for ~$3,600?

 

[edmaz]

If my oil analysis comes back clean/good. Do ya'll think I should take my chances and bring it in for timing chain and water pump replacement for ~$3,600?

Given that your vehicle is in very good condition (aside from the engine issue), it might be worth a big repair bill, in order to try to get a couple more years out of it. However, IMO there might be a better plan available to you than to make a major (and expensive) repair to the engine.

You received a quote over the phone from a random mechanic. How capable is he, and how good is his work? Does he warranty a job like this, and will he not try bailing out with flimsy excuses, if something else happens to the engine soon after the job is done? How much $$ will you be on the hook for, if something much more significant is found once the engine is torn down? Or will he just pad the bill, if the job takes longer than he's expecting it to? And there are probably other tough questions as well.

So given the uncertainty of what the outcome of this repair job might be, IMO the alternative of installing a replacement engine may very well be a better choice for you. Here is one https://www.ebay.com (commissions earned) that I quickly picked out of an ebay search list, and there are a number of others available as well. This one comes with a 1 year warranty and has fairly low mileage as well. And it's likely there are even better deals to be found with a bit more time invested in the search than the couple of minutes I spent on it. And I think you probably can find someone to just replace an engine in this price range, for a total cost that's not much different than that 3.6K chain replacement quote.

And the side benefit you get from taking the engine replacement path is the option to just keep driving your vehicle indefinitely. Because if your plan is to replace the engine anyway, then it really doesn't matter if it croaks completely in a month or a year from now. It's even possible that the current issue just keeps on plugging along, and gives you a couple more years without doing anything at all. Not very likely, but possible nevertheless.

 

[jal142]

Thank you so much for your timely response and expert opinion. Yeah I'm trying to decide if it's worth fixing and it doesn't help that it's a correlated code could be multiple causes. I will look into getting an oil analysis done ASAP.
I'm wondering if anyone else had same issue as me and what the outcome was if they chose the path of repairing it?

If I can get two more years out of this car, I'm willing to spend up to 4,000.

Unfortunately, there are a few examples of the cam/crank timing error occurring right before an engine failure caused by a failing water pump on this forum. You can also find examples of this if you search Ford Edge forums (the V6 engine in the CX-9 was a Ford design). Personally, I would stop driving the car until you address this. If you have to drive it, I'd recommend that you check the coolant level in the expansion tank prior to every time you drive it. If it is dropping and you can't see anything on the ground, the coolant is probably going into the crankcase.

If you catch it before any oil contamination, this is not a difficult repair for a competent mechanic that has the tools to do the job. It does take a lot of time because of the engine packaging and how tightly it is wedged into the engine bay. The original Ford/Mazda repair manuals called for pulling the engine out. It can be done with the engine in place but it is more difficult to access the timing cover and components. If the oil is contaminated, it's a tough decision.

You can fix this yourself for much less than you were quoted if you have some mechanical aptitude (or a friend that does). I haven't looked at the prices of parts recently, but I bought everything (including tools) for <$1000. There are instructions somewhere on this forum, do a search for water pump replacement guide.

 

[jal142]

Just a note...jal, roller chains don't stretch.* The pins & bushings wear resulting in looseness, loss of strength, and, yes, lengthening due to the larger diameter holes in the bushings and smaller diameter pins.

*And, an under-spec, overloaded roller chain can have some stretch in the plates before it comes to an early death. Timing chains aren't under spec nor overloaded.

Yeah, these chains should be a lifetime part. I've not seen any problems with the chains or guides. I had it last on the list because it could be contributing but is not really likely.

 

[gurulee]

Given that your vehicle is in very good condition (aside from the engine issue), it might be worth a big repair bill, in order to try to get a couple more years out of it. However, IMO there might be a better plan available to you than to make a major (and expensive) repair to the engine.

You received a quote over the phone from a random mechanic. How capable is he, and how good is his work? Does he warranty a job like this, and will he not try bailing out with flimsy excuses, if something else happens to the engine soon after the job is done? How much $$ will you be on the hook for, if something much more significant is found once the engine is torn down? Or will he just pad the bill, if the job takes longer than he's expecting it to? And there are probably other tough questions as well.

So given the uncertainty of what the outcome of this repair job might be, IMO the alternative of installing a replacement engine may very well be a better choice for you. Here is one https://www.ebay.com (commissions earned) that I quickly picked out of an ebay search list, and there are a number of others available as well. This one comes with a 1 year warranty and has fairly low mileage as well. And it's likely there are even better deals to be found with a bit more time invested in the search than the couple of minutes I spent on it. And I think you probably can find someone to just replace an engine in this price range, for a total cost that's not much different than that 3.6K chain replacement quote.

And the side benefit you get from taking the engine replacement path is the option to just keep driving your vehicle indefinitely. Because if your plan is to replace the engine anyway, then it really doesn't matter if it croaks completely in a month or a year from now. It's even possible that the current issue just keeps on plugging along, and gives you a couple more years without doing anything at all. Not very likely, but possible nevertheless.

Thank you for the raising these great points and alternate route that gives me a much longer term resolution. I will definitely consider this.
I'm still very curious if anyone else has been in my exact shoes and decided to go repair route, and what their outcome was.

 

[gurulee]

Given that your vehicle is in very good condition (aside from the engine issue), it might be worth a big repair bill, in order to try to get a couple more years out of it. However, IMO there might be a better plan available to you than to make a major (and expensive) repair to the engine.

You received a quote over the phone from a random mechanic. How capable is he, and how good is his work? Does he warranty a job like this, and will he not try bailing out with flimsy excuses, if something else happens to the engine soon after the job is done? How much $$ will you be on the hook for, if something much more significant is found once the engine is torn down? Or will he just pad the bill, if the job takes longer than he's expecting it to? And there are probably other tough questions as well.

So given the uncertainty of what the outcome of this repair job might be, IMO the alternative of installing a replacement engine may very well be a better choice for you. Here is one https://www.ebay.com (commissions earned) that I quickly picked out of an ebay search list, and there are a number of others available as well. This one comes with a 1 year warranty and has fairly low mileage as well. And it's likely there are even better deals to be found with a bit more time invested in the search than the couple of minutes I spent on it. And I think you probably can find someone to just replace an engine in this price range, for a total cost that's not much different than that 3.6K chain replacement quote.

And the side benefit you get from taking the engine replacement path is the option to just keep driving your vehicle indefinitely. Because if your plan is to replace the engine anyway, then it really doesn't matter if it croaks completely in a month or a year from now. It's even possible that the current issue just keeps on plugging along, and gives you a couple more years without doing anything at all. Not very likely, but possible nevertheless.

The mechanic would only offer mfr. warranty on parts for timing chain and water pump job.
I'll get an estimate on what it would cost to put replacement engine in next.
The deeper I get on repair avenues, the more I'm thinking of trading it in for $4,000-4,500..

 

[edmaz]

The mechanic would only offer mfr. warranty on parts for timing chain and water pump job.

Did you have any discussion about issues directly related to the work, such as fluid leaks or performance issues? (i.e. new issues that weren't there before the work was done)

I'll get an estimate on what it would cost to put replacement engine in next.

When you ask for those quotes, you can give them the option of you supplying the engine or them. I believe there's some added value if you buy an engine from an ebay seller, because their ebay rating will be at risk, if they don't make good on a valid claim within the warranty period. So you have some built-in protection there. But OTOH, it might be possible that a reputable shop would also offer a full year engine and labor warranty on an engine that they source. So it's to your advantage to let them choose what they prefer, and see how that plays out financially and also warranty-wise.

The deeper I get on repair avenues, the more I'm thinking of trading it in for $4,000-4,500..

I think you might find that the P0016 code being set significantly reduces the trade-in value, because everyone in the business knows what that code implies. But I guess it never hurts to ask, and maybe a Mazda dealer might be more likely to give a better trade value, based on being able to do the repair inhouse at a lesser cost.

 

[John B]

Thank you so much for your timely response and expert opinion. Yeah I'm trying to decide if it's worth fixing and it doesn't help that it's a correlated code could be multiple causes. I will look into getting an oil analysis done ASAP.
I'm wondering if anyone else had same issue as me and what the outcome was if they chose the path of repairing it?

If I can get two more years out of this car, I'm willing to spend up to 4,000.

What is the value of your car now and what will it be worth 2 years from now? With the continued loss in value plus the $4,000 +/- for the repair it might make better financial sense to trade it in for a certified pre owned. Just my 2 cents.