02 Protege5 Stalled - Slipped Timing - Wont Run after new belt! Help Please.

[rbianco3]

Hi,

My daughter has a 2002 Protege5 with 118,000 miles on it. She called me and said the car died. It lost power slowly and then died. She recalled seeing some smoke which I thought might have been from overheating because the engine compartment was still quite hot by the time I got there. She also recalled smelling something like rubber burning I hoped it was just the timing belt knowing (i think) this car is a non-interference engine.

Upon getting the car towed home here is what I found. Only 25-35psi compression in all cylinders. I opened things up and immediately noticed the cams were in a position that could not be right. They definitely had slipped there was NO way to align the (I)ntake and (E)xhaust marks on the cam sprockets. So I happily told my daughter she was lucky it wasn''t a cracked head or head gasket, and probably just a timing belt.

Replaced Timing Belt, Water Pump, Seals, Timing Belt Idler and Tensioner.

After re-assembly, the car would not start it sounded better like there was some compression but nowhere near good enough to start. I pulled the valve cover and inspected the cam sprockets to see if they slipped again. They did not. Here are pictures of how everything looks. I believe this should be right... note that cylinder one maxes out at 60psi compression. Need some expert advice as I am completely at a loss for what to do.

I lines up with E and are parallel to top of head.

Crank in a 10 degrees BTDC position.

Cam lobes look right for cylinder one. Intake just closed and Exhaust about to open.

Any help GREATLY appreciated. I am so depressed after finding I wasted my entire day yesterday. Is it possible my daughter overheated the car which caused the timing belt to slip? Would overheating cause that? How can I know if the head or head gasket is cracked other than compression testing?

Regards,
Rich

 

[rbianco3]

I might be off 180 degrees

I am posting a reply to my own message in hopes that it might help someone else in the future. I have scoured the message forum for posts about timing and after about three hours of reading I finally found someone who posted pictures of the cam sprockets for a 2002 P5 2.0 and they are 180 degrees off from the way I set mine. I set mine based on a manual found online.

It showed the I & E being aligned together at 3 o'clock and 9 o'clock position respectively. Now I believe they should have been I at 9 o'clock and E at 3 o'clock.

I am so upset with myself. I followed the manual to a "TEE" but must have read the wrong manual or for the wrong motor (someone please confirm). I am going to tear it down and swap the cam sprockets position tonight.

I will post results later.

Oh I made a separate post asking if it is possible to move the cam sprockets WITHOUT removing the belt (by just releasing the tensioner all the way). I am pretty sure it will still be too tight but hoping for an easy way out.

 

[Metallic36]

I hope you are able to get it fixed, that's some good info you wrote above also, hopefully it will be able to help someone else that might have the same situation. (2thumbs)

 

[nullbyte]

I don't think this will be a wrapped head or gasket issue cause of the compression loss is on all cylinders. Next thing I would be checking is how difficult it is the roll the engine over by hand. If you can't roll it over by hand or with a socket wrench then it might be a bearing issue. If a bearing is dead and the engine can't roll over you will get this kind of behavior starting the engine while doing a compression test.

 

[rbianco3]

Results

Thanks for the input nullbyte, much appreciated. I think you might be onto something with the head or gasket.

I took everything apart again last night and changed timing 180 degrees. Now the car barely tries to start but will not. It felt different when I turned the crank pully, I could actually feel compression sometimes so I was hopeful. The pully turned easy enough I could do it by grasping the pully, but when hitting a compression stroke I needed to use the breaker wrench/breaker bar.

I checked compression and now get the following readings.

Cylinder # / Compression

1 = 90
2 = 30
3 = 30
4 = 70

Is it possible to get these readings from timing being off? I have one fear, that after I put on the cam seals that I mounted the cam gears on wrong. They had two slots so two possible ways to mount them. I am 95% sure I put them on correctly but the exhaust cam gear got bumped from where I layed it and I am pretty sure I used the right slot because I could see a mark in one of the slots where the metal peg pressed against the gear. But.. IF I mounted the exhaust cam gear off by 90 degrees would that give me readings like I am getting? If so I'll tear it down again and take cam gear off and remount 90 degrees different.

I am really leaning towards this being a head or head gasket problem, the car was quite low on coolant. I didn't drain any coolant and when pulling the water pump only about a pint of fluid came out.

Is the next step to pull the head, or is there any other diagnostics I can do while the engine is together? Any advice appreciated.

 

[rbianco3]

Oh, I also observed that it takes two full revolutions of the crank pully to make one revolution of a cam gear. I should have known this... the exact definition of a 4 stroke.

So with this being the case and replacing a belt that has broken or slipped, how does one know which of the two TDC positions is the proper one for setting the cam sprocket positions? The only way I can think is turning the crank by hand with spark plug out, key on, and watching for spark. If anyone reads this and decides to try, please DO NOT do this with any spark plug wires attached to the spark plugs, better yet take all the spark plugs out. Is this the correct method for finding TDC of the compression stroke?

 

[808MP5]

check out here http://www.floptical.net/mazda/

i believe you choose the wrong timing mark on the crank

when it should be

but your cams are lined up correctly

 

[xelderx]

If you want to recheck the attachment angle of the cam gears follow this:

Set the cams so that the pins on the end both face up. The intake cam gear slots should go on facing like this:

.|
/

The exhaust cam gear should go on like this:

|
.\

 

[808MP5]

^if that doesn't make sense here's a better illustration

 

[sailinMSP]

I really suggest buying a Haynes manual if you do not already have one! follow the info in this manual to a tee! all the info is accurate. I have lived off them for every vehicle i have owned. The manual will have the correct ways to time the car and correct adjustments of cams and cam gears.

As a precaution i would drain engine oil and make sure there is no water/coolant or possible metal shavings in the oil.

 

[rbianco3]

More Help needed Please - No Compression still

I checked the cam sprockets were aligned properly as I thought. I changed the timing from being 10 degrees before TDC to right at TDC and it didn't help the compression numbers.

So I pulled the head. Upon inspecting the head and gasket I noticed some carbon build up between cylinder 1 & 2 and cylinder 3 & 4. The head gasket showed signs of being slightly melted and having carbon build up between those cylinders too. The carbon build up seemed minor and I'm not sure that can account for the such low compression numbers. I expected the head gasket to be completely broken or burn bad. The pistons look very clean, almost like new and show no signs of damage. Cylinder walls look fine to the naked eye. Cylinder head shows no warpage visible to naked eye either.

Does anyone know if the minor head gasket damage I described can cause compression problems as severe as 90, 30, 30 & 70? Or must there be something more severe such as a cracked block, warped head, cracked head or other?

I am planning on bringing the head into a machine shop for testing and resurfacing. Any other things I should be looking at?

I have two other questions. When I re-assemble and set the timing belt, should the crank mark be exactly at the "T" (TDC), or at some number before TDC, for example 10 degrees? Or should the timing mark be straight upward as the manual seems to imply?

Second question, being that the engine is four stroke, how do I know if the crank pully is in the firing position, or 180 degrees from the firing position? I can't think of any way of figuring out other than guessing and if the engine doesn't run disassembling and turning the crank one more revolution and re-aligning cams per manual.

THANKS for any help.

 

[Maxx Mazda]

I think you have much bigger problems than a miss timed engine. It's non-interference so bending pistons or valves isn't possible but maybe there are some other forces at work here....

 

[SeR_Cyclops]

thank goodness its not a interference engine or if it was timed wrong you would need new valves.