Drivetrain lash...worries

[mzdalvr]

yah the clutch shudder or chatter is a pretty normal occurrance. Kanseizm gave me an idea that an MSP clutch would probably solve this. Also I noticed that on my car once its out of first everything is fine. Also noticed that if I shift at 3 grand at least the car doesn't give any lash anything lower like at 2 grand where i was shifting before produced the lash.

although it could be something mechanical since every car and its the health of its parts are different...now back to your scheduled programming.

 

[NVP5White]

Their idea is that the clutch disk is slipping, hence the judder. The RPMS stay the same even when the juddering is hapening...it does not fluctuate...also, the engine sounds like its running smooth, (other than the jarring) not at the point of stalling or anything of the sort.

My only concern with this diagnosis is the fact that you say it gets worse when the car is warmed-up. Clutch chatter in the Protege world ussually appears as "cold clutch chatter". If this indeed cold clutch chatter, the the symptoms would generaly get less severe after the car and transmission have warmed. It can take anywhere between a few shifts to a few minutes/miles to warm the car depending on ambient temperature and driving. I find that if I experience severe chatter first thing on a drive then I will be more prone to experience chatter later in the drive due to the uneven heating of the clutch material and flywheel face. There is one scenario where a warm engine could make the problem worse, and that is if you run your car without driving it for exended periods after letting the car cool to ambient temp. This is because a warm engine produces more power and thus causes greater chatter on a cold clutch. It is recommended that you drive the car gently prior to getting up to operating temperature so that the engine and transmission come to temp at the same time.

If this is not the case, then I would have to say your clutch was heavily abused in its previous life (with its previous owner). A new clutch (and maybe flywheel) are the only remedy. The dealership will be the best place to perform that work if you think you may have the service and/or parts replaced under warranty. Otherwise, I would go to a trusted independant service center.

Good luck

 

[Sveivo]

This thread is entirely too long to read through in a hurry, so sorry. I do think, however, that you're bogging the motor.

Try giving it more gas and slipping the clutch more. Stiffer motor mounts are less forgiving than the stock ones, so you're just bogging it.

 

[Sveivo]

What I'm saying is that you can't keep the same driving habits with stiffer mounts....

 

[xelderx]

It might not be the normal clutch chatter we are all used to. This might be a problem with the flywheel developing hotspots or something to that effect. I bet a resurfaced flywheel would solve the problem.

 

[P5inder]

This thread is entirely too long to read through in a hurry, so sorry. I do think, however, that you're bogging the motor.

Try giving it more gas and slipping the clutch more. Stiffer motor mounts are less forgiving than the stock ones, so you're just bogging it.

As we all know, revving the engine higher and slipping the clutch more is not conducive to long clutch life or improved fuel economy. If I engage the clutch between 1500 and 2000 RPM, there is no judder but its difficult to have a nice smooth transition at that RPM and the car takes off like a slingshot.

I was getting the same shudder (in fact, worse) before I changed the mounts. I am pretty much 100% sure the motor is not being bogged. I've experienced bogging motors before, both in my Neon and in this car. When I bogged the motor in the P5, it didn't even shake. And why would it be that it only does it in first gear (even when I shift at low -sub1500- rpm in other gears?

The hot spot theory is something to look into. TSB's are not covered under warranty though, are they? The car's warranty ran out a while ago...so, If I'm ging to have to pay as much as the stealership is charging, I'd rather upgrade the clutch for an aftermarket unit and a lighter flywheel.

There is one scenario where a warm engine could make the problem worse, and that is if you run your car without driving it for exended periods after letting the car cool to ambient temp. This is because a warm engine produces more power and thus causes greater chatter on a cold clutch.

I do drive the car fairly short distances...I have not always allowed the car to warm up that much...but almost always to normal operating temperature.

Also, what I meant to say was the the shaking feels more violent as the car warms...meaning that the mm's are softer since the engine bay is hotter than when I first start the car....

Sorry, not trying to be an ass...just trying to find answers

 

[hoindawall]

Their idea is that the clutch disk is slipping, hence the judder. The RPMS stay the same even when the juddering is hapening...it does not fluctuate...also, the engine sounds like its running smooth, (other than the jarring) not at the point of stalling or anything of the sort.

when a clutch slips while your foot is on the gas rpms will skyrocket.

 

[mzdalvr]

Just to be clear - your car does this in every gear or just getting out of first (like getting the car rolling)? If it does that in just first it should go away when the clutch/flywheel gets to temp. If it doesn't then there is either a problem with your clutch or flywheel (could be alignment, could be wear..).

I know it sounds silly but most of us that experienced this are pretty used to it more than we'd like to be i think . I know that I have become a little more tolerant knowing that I'm not the only one this happens to after reading the thread.

As a relatively good self mechanic the advice I can give you is that you will know that you truly have a problem because you just know it - it really doesn't make any sense, but maybe i'm not explaining it well enough. It is also hard to tell anyone on a forum the definitive answer of whats going on because everyone experiences this differently.

I try to take everyone's advice and that helps me formulate/rule out what I believe may be happening. With the above being true your on the right track that it might be/or is a clutch issue it is in that area where I would focus. The only true way to tell is that someone is going to have to get in there and look unfortunately.

Sorry for my long winded explaination and lecture - we are all after the same result to help you. Feel free to PM/IM if you need to.

 

[xelderx]

If I engage the clutch between 1500 and 2000 RPM, there is no judder but its difficult to have a nice smooth transition at that RPM and the car takes off like a slingshot.

This bothers me a bit. How are you releasing the clutch? You have to slip it a little to get the car moving no matter what RPM you launch at. Basically the clutch is a brake that works in reverse. You can't treat it like an on/off switch. Imagine if the brakes were like that...you would get the same jerking effect...but slowing down instead of speeding up. The more I read your descriptions the more I think it's more of a driver issue than a car issue. I'm not trying to be condecending...just trying to get to the rot of the problem.

 

[P5inder]

This bothers me a bit. How are you releasing the clutch? You have to slip it a little to get the car moving no matter what RPM you launch at. Basically the clutch is a brake that works in reverse. You can't treat it like an on/off switch. Imagine if the brakes were like that...you would get the same jerking effect...but slowing down instead of speeding up. The more I read your descriptions the more I think it's more of a driver issue than a car issue. I'm not trying to be condecending...just trying to get to the rot of the problem.

I know that in order for the clutch to work it has to slip. And I know that its not an on-off switch...I just don't feel that anyone should have to rev the car to 2000 rpm just to be able to engage the clutch/tranny. I don't want to prematurely burn the clutch.

Just to be clear - your car does this in every gear or just getting out of first (like getting the car rolling)? If it does that in just first it should go away when the clutch/flywheel gets to temp. If it doesn't then there is either a problem with your clutch or flywheel (could be alignment, could be wear..).

The car does it ONLY in first gear...and it does it whether the car is cold or warmed up. Today, I tried taking off in second gear, down a light hill and no problems with shudder in second, at around the same rpms...

I am really sorry to appear like, either an idiot or an a-hole. My intent is to be neither. I just want to get rid of this shudder. Period.

I'll have to get back to you guys when the dealer tells me their diagnosis.

 

[xelderx]

I know that in order for the clutch to work it has to slip. And I know that its not an on-off switch...I just don't feel that anyone should have to rev the car to 2000 rpm just to be able to engage the clutch/tranny. I don't want to prematurely burn the clutch.

You won't prematurely burn up the clutch. I had 90,000 miles on my stock clutch when I pulled it out for the first time. It still looked perfectly fine. I had even towed trailers with it which is not recommended in the owner's manual, but it showed zero adverse wear. Your brake pads take 100 times the abuse the clutch does and they last over 50,000 miles. The stock clutch can easily make it on a N/A car for well over 150,000 miles.

If it makes you feel any better...I've had an ACT Stage 1 clutch in the car for about 2 years now and it gets launched at around 4,000 RPMs at least 16-20 times a month when I race. That is with R compound tires as well which don't give so the clutch has to since I'm asking it to work when the car is making peak torque. I've put over 30,000 miles on it so far. Clutches are a lot more robust than I think you are giving them credit for. I don't know of anyone on this forum that drives a basically stock car that has had to replace the clutch because it was worn out yet and we have a few members over 150,000 miles I believe.

 

[xelderx]

oh yea...just for reference. I had to replace the original clutch on my old Passat at 120,000 miles. It had a VR6 with 180hp and weighed 300lbs more than the Pro5. It probably would have lasted a lot longer but I had a feeling the previous owner was a crappy driver. I worked at the dealer it was traded in to and I had to turn every single brake rotor to get the warps out. I'm sure they weren't very nice to the clutch either. The stock Protege clutch had barely any wear on it at 90,000 miles so 120,000 miles would have been no problem.

 

[P5inder]

oh yea...just for reference. I had to replace the original clutch on my old Passat at 120,000 miles. It had a VR6 with 180hp and weighed 300lbs more than the Pro5. It probably would have lasted a lot longer but I had a feeling the previous owner was a crappy driver. I worked at the dealer it was traded in to and I had to turn every single brake rotor to get the warps out. I'm sure they weren't very nice to the clutch either. The stock Protege clutch had barely any wear on it at 90,000 miles so 120,000 miles would have been no problem.

I don't know what the previous owner was like... But I can only surmise that with all three motormounts torn...with only 75,000KM on the car so, the previous owner probably didn't baby this thing much...

My Neon had 160,000 when I finally had to change the clutch on it. Neon wasn't stock...ported, polished, decked head, cam, race pcm, header, full exhaust...gained and maintained +35 HP on the stock clutch for about 90,000 of the 160. Like I said, this feels unlike anything I've encountered before...

Oh well...

I'll post the dealership's service department's findings...

 

[xelderx]

I'll post the dealership's service department's findings...

Yea...keep us posted. I also tore all my stock motormounts but I do autocross alot.

 

[P5inder]

Well, the verdict is in...

It was the clutch...more specifically, the flywheel...

Mazda service department sucks in RMD. Their mechanic couldn't even tell the difference between a regular mount and a fille mount. He and his supervisor tried to tell me that the mount which I replaced no more than 500km ago was torn...

Eventually, I had to go and show them which prompted another half-hour of prodding and searching.

I showed them the TSB and they said they knew nothing of it...

$115 bux later, they tell me its the clutch and that it'll cost me $1000.00 to get it fixed...that is not including the price for a flywheel either...($480)

As I was paying for their service, I spoke with one of the senior service department personnel and he told me they've had to change quite a few clutches on P5's and other Pro's. He said to get the flywheel machined first and that if the flywheel was too warped then change it instead.

So the problem is that the stock clutch and flywheel are not a good combo...this clutch/flywheel combo develops hotspots which eventually warp the flywheel.

N E way, I ordered an Exedy clutch, machined the flywheel and everything's honky-dory.

For now...I hope this clutch doesn't warp the flywheel...If it does, I guess Corksport's Mazdaspeed lightened flywheel will become part of the changes made to the P5.

Thanks everyone for your input and help. I'll keep you posted on the warping issue.

 

[xelderx]

yep....the good ole'...clutch chatter. It seems you might have had the worst case of it I've ever heard. Most people just get a slight chatter, but when this first came there were no stiffmounts made for the car. The stiffer mounts might have amplified the effects.

 

[Sveivo]

Vibration/Shudder sucks

Hey P5inder,

Now that I have my mounts installed, I have exactly the same issue! Exactly what you describe throughout the thread.

Is it really the clutch/flywheel? Do you have more info on this? The problem was not there at all with stock mounts.

I am wondering, what are other people with stiff mounts (front and rear) experiencing? Can you take off smoothly at about 1000 rpm?

Taking off slowly has become a problem since I installed the mounts. The engine rocks violently. It's pretty bad.

Launching hard, on the other hand in great. Feels very solid. It's too bad that I only do that once a month or so. The rest of the time I just want to drive comfortably and enjoy my trip. (jerkit)

PS: I have rr-racing inserts, front and rear.

 

[thejetman]

give it 500 miles. break it in nice. no hard starts and race shifting. you will waste that 1k then. after i replaced my clutch with a stage II and lightweight flywheel (at the same time i did the mounts) it took about 500-600 miles before it started to grab hard and really see the effects of the work i did.(idhitit)

 

[Sveivo]

heres an idea.....start your car....put the parking brake on, open the hood, grab the throttle with your hand and give it a couple of "flicks" of the wrist. IF you have any lash, you will see your motor moving back and forth in the engine compartment. befor i put the mounts in my car, it did it. Very violently might i add. After i installed them, the engine does not move. As far as your 'bucking" problem goes. It is BECAUSE you have the stiffer mounts. all that power is now getting to the ground, causing more traction and "launching" you forward if you will. You just have to get used to it. I have a stage II clutch and lightweight flywheel and i have to be gentle at low rpms. Just push the clutch in more at low speeds, coast. Your problem will go away.

Thanks for the idea. About where is the throttle cable located?

This feels like wheel hop, except it's when I try to back out or move slowly around a parking lot. Does yours feel that way?

 

[thejetman]

Thanks for the idea. About where is the throttle cable located?

This feels like wheel hop, except it's when I try to back out or move slowly around a parking lot. Does yours feel that way?

Negative ghost rider, i have No wheel hopege.
the throttle is located next to the firewall on the drivers side by the intake on top of the motor.(screwy)