Sluggish frequent pedal/throttle response. Need suggestions

[Lazy2.5]

I fully agree, with the tuning of the CX-5 being out-of-line with normal and customary expectations of responsiveness in vehicles.

That's not at all what I suggested. This behavior is actually very common amongst virtually every other economy car out there. I have noticed that it's even worse in other cars I've driven.

My personal observations with this transmission:

When in gear, the transmission hates downshifting unless you give it probably 50% throttle or even more. It's particularly sluggish when wanting to drop just one gear. For example, if I am wanting to pass, I know exactly what throttle position to request for the downshift that I am looking for. It always responds to this scenario exactly how I want it to.

The next behavior I notice is when you are simply pressing down on the throttle harder, such as we needing to increase your speed slightly or begin climbing a gradual hill. The throttle seems to respond only to what's a responsible position for the RPM you are in, transmission totally refuses to downshift. Push harder and then the engine starts to bog.

The solution is really simple. I just pop it into manual mode, drop to the appropriate gear and stay there. The shift strategy is annoying at times but easy to override. I don't even have a sport mode.

As I noted, a similar-vintage Mazda 3 2.5L A/T vehicle (though not SkyActiv) was highly responsive, highly accommodating with even modest change in the accelerator pedal's angle. The 2016 CX-5 certainly isn't that. - My "problem" with expectations centers on the fact of my particular experience with the Mazda 3 2.5L. Extremely responsive, a similar 2.5L, though not SkyActiv. Clearly, tuned quite differently from the factory, as opposed to this CX-5's factory tune.

Yes, I can well understand your concerns, considering a pre Skyactiv vehicle you owned anecdotally had a more responsive transmission than your current Skyactiv. Keep in mind that your CX-5 is significantly heavier and has AWD dulling down drivetrain response. While that has virtually nothing to do with transmission tuning (The fundamental topic of your thread.) That will of course dumb down the response which you were happy with in the Mazda 3. You could try driving a Skyactiv Mazda 3 with the 2.5L and see whether it does the same thing. Why your CX-5 with AWD doesn't respond the same as a FWD Mazda 3 is pretty self-explanatory.

My previous car was a 2011 BMW 528i. It was even more stubborn with forcing upshifts, and ignoring downshifts than my Mazda 6. It's not even an economy car! When I switched to the "6," I immediately noticed how eagerly it would kick down at suddenly 50%+ throttle inputs as opposed to the BMW.

I've driven several other economy cars that behave exactly the same as the Mazda, if not worse.

Yet, in addition to whatever programming has been done by Mazda on this vehicle, there are the various sensors and devices that can impede such responsiveness. Which is what the opening questions were about, people's knowledge of what the full list of such parts happen to be on the CX0-5. Identifying the full list, whatever that list is, was really my purpose.

I appreciate everyone's remarks about what can be done, on the assumption the various parts/sensors I have are functioning properly. Seems everybody's understanding and experience is that Mazda made this an economy-minded setup (engine+transm).

My 2015 6 has over 344,000KM. The car has been in my family since brand new. It has always done this. I'm very confident that there is nothing wrong with your car, based on what you're stating in this thread.

Might well look into an after-market tuning service. DRTuned, perhaps, or another similar. Haven't yet researched, though I might well begin doing so.

You should. I find myself hardly ever needing to rev the engine past 3000RPM ever since I got the tune. It makes a satisfactory amount of torque below that threshold for most reasonable merging/passing needs.

 

[N7turbo]

Keep in mind that your CX-5 is significantly heavier and has AWD dulling down drivetrain response.

Bro I drive a Miata at least 50% of the time. There is no dulling of drivetrain response in the CX-5 due to those factors.

The main difference is shift programming.

 

[GFrosty]

That's not at all what I suggested. This behavior is actually very common amongst virtually every other economy car out there. I have noticed that it's even worse in other cars I've driven.

I have noticed the great majority of vehicles with A/T I have driven or owned in the past 40yrs have had markedly less hesitation (or "reluctance") to downshift when the accelerator pedal is modestly to moderately pressed. But everyone's experiences are different.

But, yes, in the "economy car" segment it sure does seem more prevalent than in other categories.

The primary comparative example I presented was a similar vintage (2012) Mazda 3 2.5L. It utterly embodied the Mazda "Zoom Zoom" approach to basic performance and connectedness, clearly an "economy" car though it was. Had that sporty soul apparent through the pedal and steering wheel. Driving sedately, it drove easily and efficiently, but it also woke-up the moment I pressed the pedal ... perhaps even dropping a gear somewhat earlier than I would have mapped the car to do.

I've drive a few other CX-5's. None of which seem to be so hesitant as mine. Hence the discussion thread I created, asking for people's specific knowledge of various parts, sensors, settings that involve themselves with how responsive the pedal-to-gear selection is on this vehicle.

As you say, there are a great number of vehicles, out there, in the "econo" category that have similar evidence of efficiency-driven tuning to the point of sluggishness. Whether due to not caring, or due to simply making an error in the mapping choices, or valuing fuel economy above all else.

Didn't mean to cause burrs of the backside, for anyone.

 

[Lazy2.5]

I've drive a few other CX-5's. None of which seem to be so hesitant as mine. Hence the discussion thread I created, asking for people's specific knowledge of various parts, sensors, settings that involve themselves with how responsive the pedal-to-gear selection is on this vehicle.

Ok, that changes things. I would try to replace the MAF and O2 sensors. Have you serviced your transmission? Try the tune.

As you say, there are a great number of vehicles, out there, in the "econo" category that have similar evidence of efficiency-driven tuning to the point of sluggishness. Whether due to not caring, or due to simply making an error in the mapping choices, or valuing fuel economy above all else.

It's because they have to. I'm sure Mazda's engineers would have loosened up a little if they could. EPA's requirements are very strict.

Didn't mean to cause burrs of the backside, for anyone.

If you got that impression from me, I apologize. I am enjoying this conversation. I hope you are too or have at least gained something useful from it.

 

[GFrosty]

Ok, that changes things. I would try to replace the MAF and O2 sensors. Have you serviced your transmission? Try the tune.

Transmission, transfer case, and differential fluids have all been changed a couple of times since I acquired the car (pre-owned).

Have done the transmission re-learn procedure a few times. including yesterday, as it turns out.

Have ensured the throttle body is clean, along with the MAF sensor. I suppose the throttle body'a actual smoothness (of the butterfly) might not be what it used to, even after the couple of cleanings I've done since acquiring the car. But that's a guess. Haven't checked the TPS or MAF signals, yet.

The plugs and ignition coils are all new within the past 15Kmi.

Have not yet checked function/signals of, nor replaced, any of the car's sensors. Not the O2 (upper, lower), not the MAF, not the MAP/IAT sensor. Might be a good project in the Springtime, to clean, test and replace as necessary.

And, haven't yet checked the accelerator pedal's signals. This was my first thought, that the pedal's sensor/connector wasn't properly signaling that I was asking (via depression of the pedal and change of the pedal angle) for zippier performance. The APP pedal gets a lot of use. Wouldn't surprise me if it's no longer correctly informing the car of the pedal angle. But that's all just a guess, at this point.

 

[Lazy2.5]

Transmission, transfer case, and differential fluids have all been changed a couple of times since I acquired the car (pre-owned).

Have done the transmission re-learn procedure a few times. including yesterday, as it turns out.

Have ensured the throttle body is clean, along with the MAF sensor. I suppose the throttle body'a actual smoothness (of the butterfly) might not be what it used to, even after the couple of cleanings I've done since acquiring the car. But that's a guess. Haven't checked the TPS or MAF signals, yet.

The plugs and ignition coils are all new within the past 15Kmi.

Have not yet checked function/signals of, nor replaced, any of the car's sensors. Not the O2 (upper, lower), not the MAF, not the MAP/IAT sensor. Might be a good project in the Springtime, to clean, test and replace as necessary.

And, haven't yet checked the accelerator pedal's signals. This was my first thought, that the pedal's sensor/connector wasn't properly signaling that I was asking (via depression of the pedal and change of the pedal angle) for zippier performance. The APP pedal gets a lot of use. Wouldn't surprise me if it's no longer correctly informing the car of the pedal angle. But that's all just a guess, at this point.

The only other thing I could think of would be to try an ECU reset by leaving the battery unplugged for some time.

 

[GFrosty]

Did the transmission reset/relearn procedure, again, the other day. And, mostly, it woke things up again. Much more responsive than usual. But we'll see how it is in a few weeks, as my guess is it'll begin learning a more-sedate approach to typical near-town driving patterns.

The only other thing I could think of would be to try an ECU reset by leaving the battery unplugged for some time.

Last couple of times that I've cleaned the throttle body, the battery has been disconnected 90mins or longer. Made no difference. Beyond the cleaner TB being a bit smoother.

 

[Lazy2.5]

Did the transmission reset/relearn procedure, again, the other day. And, mostly, it woke things up again. Much more responsive than usual. But we'll see how it is in a few weeks, as my guess is it'll begin learning a more-sedate approach to typical near-town driving patterns.

Just keep doing the resets as often as you need to maintain the improved response you noticed.

Based on my observations, whatever "learning" the transmission decides to pick-up is usually quite subtle and regardless will follow the factory tuned parameters for shifting rather closely.

For example, I notice that my transmission stubbornly likes to shift as low as possible. When engine load or throttle position is significantly higher than usual, the transmission sort of wakes up and gives you more aggressive shift points.

Looking for a happy middle ground (Mostly so that I just don't bog out in the next gear the transmission is going to inevitably choose) I got tired of this and started using manual mode more often to shift a little bit higher than usual. Pop it back into "D," and the transmission has actually picked up on this behavior and is continuing to follow the slightly higher shift points than usual, even with the same throttle position as before. (Unless I'm going down even a slight hill. The transmission just goes like "nope" and shifts early again.) I'm pretty light with the throttle most of the time.

This is why my next car is going to be a manual. These AT's are great and full of potential, but I'm just done dealing with the way they're tuned. A mindful driver such as myself can easily drive in a way that respects emissions as well as fuel economy without transmission tuning that basically acts as a nanny by bogging the engine at 1200rpm to meet emissions and fuel economy regulations.

 

[GFrosty]

This is why my next car is going to be a manual. These AT's are great and full of potential, but I'm just done dealing with the way they're tuned. A mindful driver such as myself can easily drive in a way that respects emissions as well as fuel economy without transmission tuning that basically acts as a nanny by bogging the engine at 1200rpm to meet emissions and fuel economy regulations.

Yeah, this CX-5 hasn't warmed me to the A/T's key weakness: clearly having been programmed to "learn" based on a heavily-biased preference for fuel efficiency. I have yet to find that "sweet spot" in driving the CX-5 where it affords responsive throttle choices by the A/T while avoiding the aggressive nanny biases over time.

No other car with automatic transmission has behaved this way, so assertively, in my experience. The Mazda 3's programming for A/T liveliness and responsiveness was stellar. This CX-5, not.

No can do, manual transmissions. For me, old injuries require an automatic. Probably sufficient, since I don't require "spirited" driving handling (with respect to pedal+throttle responsiveness) ... though it is a far nicer experience.

Still, I'm hopeful there are some improvements that can still be made, through either cleaning or replacement of some sensors. Will continue to go through them, one by one, to see if there is some maintenance-specific reason this particular vehicle is so sluggish in responsiveness. The transm re-learn procedure is all well and good, and it's an improvement for a time, but it doesn't avoid all bogging-down.

Onward and upward.

 

[N7turbo]

One of my biggest wish list items for tuning is for someone to crack the TCM so we can program a perfect shift regime for ourselves. I would replace Sport mode with the tuned version and leave Normal mode as-is.

 

[Lazy2.5]

It's all hard-set programming. The only way to fix it is TCM tuning.