Volkswagen Ordered To Recall 500K Vehicles Over Its Own Malicious Programming

[craigo]

I found this source from a year ago that found that average diesel actual on-road emissions were 7 times the tested Euro 6 limit: http://www.theicct.org/real-world-exhaust-emissions-modern-diesel-cars

Euro 6 is also more lenient than US standards. If you download the pdf, makes and models are not identified, only vehicle style, but it seems like they were picked from several manufacturers. That suggests that test cycle beating isn't just a VW issue. This story is just going to get bigger.

 

[magnumP5]

Many people cross-shop hybrids and the TDI for the fuel mileage. The TDI was often the winner because it drove better, and VW's CleanDiesel marketing made it seem like it was an environmentally friendly choice. No doubt their research told them that these cross-shoppers were also concerned about that. To see this would be very upsetting:

"In the lab, the two VWs performed flawlessly. But when they were taken out on the roads in California, they were belching out levels of nitrogen oxide that were 30 to 40 times higher than the regulatory standards. Even the heavy-duty trucks the researchers had tested had never performed that poorly by comparison": http://www.nytimes.com/2015/09/22/business/it-took-epa-pressure-to-get-vw-to-admit-fault.html

Within a given segment hybrids and diesels get similar fuel economy and cost about the same. Both drive "differently" than standard gasoline-engined cars so the only real differentiation, other than personal style preferences, is emissions. If one is so concerned about emissions they'd, in theory, always go for the hybrid.

Look at the working of the quotation you used. Sensationalism at its best. No statement of what the actual EPA limits are (i.e. 40x a small number is still a small number) and what "heavy-duty trucks" were tested. I'm guessing most 1970's-era semi's driving today's roads have significantly higher emissions.

Many other car makers tried to sell diesels in US (toyota, honda, mazda) but failed tests. The US air quality is far better than is was in 1970 due to emission tests. Why should VW be given a free pass to pollute our air? They brazenly broke the law and should be severely penalized.

No one said they should get a free pass. Fine them in accordance with the law. I see no point in jailing various individuals at VW because that in and of itself solves nothing and discourages nothing.

If they can't get these cars to pass the emissions test AND run satisfactorily on the road, they should be crushed, all 500,000 of them, at VWs expense.

I'll keep my TDI, thank you. There's still no better compromise of horsepower/torque and fuel economy available and "emissions" isn't something I consider when purchasing automobiles. Also, by that logic we should crush all vehicles that don't meet current emissions standards. How many millions of cars then? Who's going to pay for the new cars to replace those being crushed?

 

[craigo]

Within a given segment hybrids and diesels get similar fuel economy and cost about the same. Both drive "differently" than standard gasoline-engined cars so the only real differentiation, other than personal style preferences, is emissions. If one is so concerned about emissions they'd, in theory, always go for the hybrid.

But people don't make their decisions like that. They weigh the pros and cons. Both hybrid and TDI advertise good gas mileage (a prime concern). But if you compare a Prius to a Golf, the Golf feels better to drive. And then VW promised, through their marketing of "Clean Diesel", that it was friendly to the environment. For many that tips the scales toward the TDI, but it is deceptive and that will infuriate the many people who came to the decision based on the belief of that it was: Good for mileage, fun to drive, and friendly to the environment.

Look at the working of the quotation you used. Sensationalism at its best. No statement of what the actual EPA limits are (i.e. 40x a small number is still a small number) and what "heavy-duty trucks" were tested. I'm guessing most 1970's-era semi's driving today's roads have significantly higher emissions.

The quote says that heavy duty trucks perform more clean than the TDI, which seems rather disappointing to say the least. The limit is what it is - unless you want to start arguing that it is needlessly strict, in that case, I'll just say whatever makes you feel better as I'm not going to the trouble of pointing to the wealth of evidence otherwise.

"emissions" isn't something I consider when purchasing automobiles.

You don't but a lot of people do. And so do people who have to consider what cumulative effect happens when there are millions of vehicles on the road.

 

[CC58]

I'll keep my TDI, thank you. There's still no better compromise of horsepower/torque and fuel economy available and "emissions" isn't something I consider when purchasing automobiles. Also, by that logic we should crush all vehicles that don't meet current emissions standards. How many millions of cars then? Who's going to pay for the new cars to replace those being crushed?

You maybe forced to have a software upgrade that cripples performance and mileage in order to pass emissions.
That would be a compromise VW owners won't like.

 

[magnumP5]

But people don't make their decisions like that. They weigh the pros and cons. Both hybrid and TDI advertise good gas mileage (a prime concern). But if you compare a Prius to a Golf, the Golf feels better to drive. And then VW promised, through their marketing of "Clean Diesel", that it was friendly to the environment. For many that tips the scales toward the TDI, but it is deceptive and that will infuriate the many people who came to the decision based on the belief of that it was: Good for mileage, fun to drive, and friendly to the environment.

If anyone purchased a TDI-powered car on the premise it was any better for the environment than any other IC-powered car than that's just silly. But I'm not going to argue the intelligence of the American populace.

The quote says that heavy duty trucks perform more clean than the TDI, which seems rather disappointing to say the least. The limit is what it is - unless you want to start arguing that it is needlessly strict, in that case, I'll just say whatever makes you feel better as I'm not going to the trouble of pointing to the wealth of evidence otherwise.

But what heavy-duty trucks: new ones, old ones, semi's, pickups, etc? Obviously the TDI's would emit more than new, compliant heavy-duty trucks otherwise we wouldn't be having this conversation. What about the 70's-era dumpers and semi's? Without additional information the statement means nothing and is sensationalizing the issue. Not arguing the laws at all. Personally, I'd rather see industry competitiveness drive innovation rather than government legislation but that's another argument.

You don't but a lot of people do. And so do people who have to consider what cumulative effect happens when there are millions of vehicles on the road.

And people should consider the total population of cars on the road and understand how they stack up to modern emissions standards. Again, that would get into arguing the intelligence of the American populace. How many cars are 10, 20, 30+ years old that emit more than modern TDI-powered cars? If they were all replaced by non-compliant TDI's would pollution be reduced?

You maybe forced to have a software upgrade that cripples performance and mileage in order to pass emissions.
That would be a compromise VW owners won't like.

No doubt that's what's coming. I still plan on keeping my TDI. If the software change has a big impact (e.q. -10 hp/ft-lb and/or -5 mi/gal) I can choose to ignore it (did that with my Tacoma's floor mat recall). If it's a forced recall I can always go with an aftermarket tune like those from Malone or KermaTDI. I propose a slight modification of the car enthusiast's motto: pick two: power, fuel economy, low-emissions.

 

[MikeM.]

Look at the working of the quotation you used. Sensationalism at its best. No statement of what the actual EPA limits are (i.e. 40x a small number is still a small number) and what "heavy-duty trucks" were tested.

The EPA limits may vary based upon the class of vehicle but those limits are publically available. Reporting that emissions were up to 40X the allowed amounts is more meaningful than giving us a numerical range that would have zero meaning to 99% of readers. It wasn't intended to be a scientific paper and I certainly don't see it as sensationalism.

I'm guessing most 1970's-era semi's driving today's roads have significantly higher emissions.

That's why the air quality was such a huge problem in the 1970's. Awful. And what on earth does that have to do with the current trickery to bypass clean air standards?

No one said they should get a free pass. Fine them in accordance with the law.

Actually, the law has provisions for fraud. And in this case it would be a felony.

I see no point in jailing various individuals at VW because that in and of itself solves nothing and discourages nothing.

The people who might be jailed are not just "various individuals at VW" they would be the people who perpetrated this fraud. Historically, jailing has been used as a deterrent. People are more reluctant to commit crimes when they know it could cost them their freedom. And freedom isn't free. A free society is dysfunctional in the absence of laws and rules. And without effective enforcement of those laws and rules, the laws and rules that our quality of living depends upon in civil society, these laws and rules might as well not exist.

What is it about you that is so reluctant to use jail time to carry out our laws against fraud? Something tells me you don't have any trouble with jail time for bank robbery or murder. What is it that makes you so opposed to using jail time to penalize white collar criminals?

I'll keep my TDI, thank you. There's still no better compromise of horsepower/torque and fuel economy available and "emissions" isn't something I consider when purchasing automobiles.

You have every right to keep or sell your TDI. The choice is yours. But if VW doesn't come up with an acceptable fix, you may not be allowed to drive it on the same roads the rest of us drive on. And while I don't look at emissions before purchasing a vehicle, I'm glad that standards exist making all new offerings relatively clean. Except in this case, these important standards were purposely bypassed in the name of greed.

Also, by that logic we should crush all vehicles that don't meet current emissions standards. How many millions of cars then? Who's going to pay for the new cars to replace those being crushed?

The chances of all those cars being crushed before they have exceeded their natural life is almost 0. That would only happen in the rare event that VW can't come up with a feasible solution. But if they were crushed the cost would be carried by the company that perpetrated the fraud. Why should a company who doesn't play by the same rules steal sales from those who do?

 

[MikeM.]

If anyone purchased a TDI-powered car on the premise it was any better for the environment than any other IC-powered car than that's just silly. But I'm not going to argue the intelligence of the American populace.

No, it's called caring about the community you live in. Part of the problem with America these days is there are too many people who are only out for themselves. This country has a long history of people helping people to build a better place to live. Sadly, that's slipping away.

Personally, I'd rather see industry competitiveness drive innovation rather than government legislation but that's another argument.

It is industry competitiveness that is driving innovation. Unfortunately, some people want to become more competitive by CHEATING. That's not competitiveness, that's STEALING. VW doesn't own the air quality of our cities, the people who live there do.

And people should consider the total population of cars on the road and understand how they stack up to modern emissions standards. Again, that would get into arguing the intelligence of the American populace. How many cars are 10, 20, 30+ years old that emit more than modern TDI-powered cars? If they were all replaced by non-compliant TDI's would pollution be reduced?

Why do you keep using crude and outdated machinery as an excuse for those who break the rules we have put in place to begin to solve the very real problems of crude and outdated machinery?

 

[MikeM.]

You maybe forced to have a software upgrade that cripples performance and mileage in order to pass emissions.
That would be a compromise VW owners won't like.

True, many won't like it. But thanks to our tort laws that have evolved over centuries, those responsible will have to pay. That means owners who have lost value can be compensated by those who perpetrated the lie. That's how it should be and why tort law acts as a deterrent to fraudulent behavior. Without tort law companies could not be held accountable when the fraud is uncovered.

 

[magnumP5]

The EPA limits may vary based upon the class of vehicle but those limits are publically available. Reporting that emissions were up to 40X the allowed amounts is more meaningful than giving us a numerical range that would have zero meaning to 99% of readers. It wasn't intended to be a scientific paper and I certainly don't see it as sensationalism.

It's sensationalism because the article reads as if the TDI engines are emitting more NOx and hydro-carbons than black smoke-belching semi's. Like you said, the EPA has different regulations for different vehicles so why not make the apples-to-apples comparison? Because it isn't appealing to readers...

That's why the air quality was such a huge problem in the 1970's. Awful. And what on earth does that have to do with the current trickery to bypass clean air standards?

Look at the current fleet of heavy machinery being operated on our roads. Most semi's, buses etc. being operated were manufactured between 1970 and 1990. These articles are making the VW diesel look like some massive NOx-producing machine. While yes, they cheated and the engines don't meet the EPA regulations for diesel emissions, they are massively more efficient and clean than a large number of other vehicles on the road today.

Actually, the law has provisions for fraud. And in this case it would be a felony.

The people who might be jailed are not just "various individuals at VW" they would be the people who perpetrated this fraud. Historically, jailing has been used as a deterrent. People are more reluctant to commit crimes when they know it could cost them their freedom. And freedom isn't free. A free society is dysfunctional in the absence of laws and rules. And without effective enforcement of those laws and rules, the laws and rules that our quality of living depends upon in civil society, these laws and rules might as well not exist.

What is it about you that is so reluctant to use jail time to carry out our laws against fraud? Something tells me you don't have any trouble with jail time for bank robbery or murder. What is it that makes you so opposed to using jail time to penalize white collar criminals?

Have you seen "white collar" jail? It's hardly a deterrent. These guys aren't going to be locked up with murderers and rapists. On the subject of murder and since everyone is so fixated on incarceration why wasn't anyone at GM jailed?

Nice non sequitur at the end, though.

You have every right to keep or sell your TDI. The choice is yours. But if VW doesn't come up with an acceptable fix, you may not be allowed to drive it on the same roads the rest of us drive on.

How do you propose the government mandate that? Force me to provide evidence of a ECM reflash? Sure, that's easy enough. If that's the case companies like Malone and KermaTDI will make a fortune on selling "pre-flash" tunes.

The chances of all those cars being crushed before they have exceeded their natural life is almost 0. That would only happen in the rare event that VW can't come up with a feasible solution. But if they were crushed the cost would be carried by the company that perpetrated the fraud. Why should a company who doesn't play by the same rules steal sales from those who do?

I never said VW should crush the cars, that was CC58. Calling for all VW TDI's to be crushed is silly and is akin to requesting the destruction of all automobiles that don't meet current EPA regulations.

No, it's called caring about the community you live in. Part of the problem with America these days is there are too many people who are only out for themselves. This country has a long history of people helping people to build a better place to live. Sadly, that's slipping away.

Nice, subtle ad hominem. There are better ways of improving one's community than worrying over every micro-gram of NOx per hour emitted by an automobile. What about all those IC engines in lawnmowers, trimmers, boats, ATV's, dirt bikes, etc.

It is industry competitiveness that is driving innovation. Unfortunately, some people want to become more competitive by CHEATING. That's not competitiveness, that's STEALING. VW doesn't own the air quality of our cities, the people who live there do.

I can't really argue with this. In an ideal world consumers would drive industry competitiveness. In a way it's already happening; look at VW's stock. What if, rather than mandating standards, vehicles emissions numbers were reported along with horsepower, torque, and fuel economy? Since everyone truly cares about the environment wouldn't we all pay a little more for the less-emitting vehicles? The higher-emitting vehicles wouldn't sell forcing the auto manufacturers to innovate. This requires and educated consumer though...

Why do you keep using crude and outdated machinery as an excuse for those who break the rules we have put in place to begin to solve the very real problems of crude and outdated machinery?

Because these "crude and outdated" machines are still very much in operation across our country. Yes, VW cheated. Yes, they should be fined. No, it's not the end of the world.

 

[AllezDada]

MagnumP5, I saw in an earlier post that the TDI is actually your wife's car. Have you had her read the info that's been released? If the info is presented in a neutral way (just the facts) I think it would be fair and important to have her input.

 

[MikeM.]

It's sensationalism because the article reads as if the TDI engines are emitting more NOx and hydro-carbons than black smoke-belching semi's. Like you said, the EPA has different regulations for different vehicles so why not make the apples-to-apples comparison? Because it isn't appealing to readers...

I believe it's yourassumption the article makes it sound like TDI engines emit more than old school diesels. What I get out of the article is that TDI's release many times more pollutants than they claimed and many times more than their competitors who comply with the rules. Because that's the common sense interpretation of the article. Nothing sensational about it.

Have you seen "white collar" jail? It's hardly a deterrent. These guys aren't going to be locked up with murderers and rapists. On the subject of murder and since everyone is so fixated on incarceration why wasn't anyone at GM jailed?

I don't know why no one at GM was jailed. But that some other guilty party wasn't jailed is hardly a good argument why no one should be jailed in this crime.

How do you propose the government mandate that? Force me to provide evidence of a ECM reflash? Sure, that's easy enough. If that's the case companies like Malone and KermaTDI will make a fortune on selling "pre-flash" tunes.

Yes, simply require that the car be returned to EPA approved status before issuing licenses. It's not difficult. Drivers already have the ability to illegally modify their engines to pollute more, nothing new there. Ever heard of "rolling coal"? Selfish idiots have always existed and there are better things for the EPA to be doing than to try to police every last selfish idiot.

I never said VW should crush the cars, that was CC58. Calling for all VW TDI's to be crushed is silly and is akin to requesting the destruction of all automobiles that don't meet current EPA regulations.

My point was, nobody who has any authority has called for all TDI's to be crushed. But if someone suggests they should all be crushed, well, let's just say this might be one point you and I agree on.

Nice, subtle ad hominem. There are better ways of improving one's community than worrying over every micro-gram of NOx per hour emitted by an automobile. What about all those IC engines in lawnmowers, trimmers, boats, ATV's, dirt bikes, etc.

Umm, no. This is how the air quality un our nations city was (and is) being cleaned up, one micro-gram/hr at a time. It's not the individual emissions of an individual trip that is the problem, it's the collective emissions. The regulations only work because they apply to all new vehicles. Your argument assumes that an individual should improve their community only in ways that are immediately visible and that we shouldn't worry about the problems that are only a problem in the collective. By that method of reasoning we don't need sewage treatment plants either because one little s*** in the big bay isn't going to hurt anyone. Oh, yeah, and hundreds of seals are already pooping there anyway.

Since everyone truly cares about the environment wouldn't we all pay a little more for the less-emitting vehicles? The higher-emitting vehicles wouldn't sell forcing the auto manufacturers to innovate.

If you actually believe that, you are more idealistic (in a completely unrealistic way) than those who thought communes would work.

Because these "crude and outdated" machines are still very much in operation across our country. Yes, VW cheated. Yes, they should be fined. No, it's not the end of the world.

But no one said it was "the end of the world", those are your words and are simply a red herring. The facts remain, pollution is a cumulative problem, people actually die early deaths from it, and therefore the EPA would be falling down on the job to not take violations like this seriously. Particularly since the violations were willful and blatant way of gaining a competitive advantage over those who played by the rules, rules that save real lives. And prosecutors would not be out of line to ask for the statutory penalties that apply, including prison time for the architects of this elaborate fraud on the people.

The fact that there are still crude and outdated machines on the road (until they eventually are no longer economic to keep on the road) is not an argument in favor of treating these fraudsters with baby gloves. I'm not in favor of special prisons for white collar criminals but, if they really are so pleasant that prison does not act as a deterrent, then the perpetrators of this fraud probably won't mind being sent there. Because the real lack of deterrent is the belief that no court would send an auto-exec to prison.

 

[halfast3]

Needless to say, the issue has been cussed & discussed ad nauseum over on the TDi forum.

Here's a LINK to the thread with a comprehensive list of information in the first post.

 

[Kedis82ZE8]

"The EPA said on Monday it would widen its investigation to other automakers, and French Finance Minister Michel Sapin said on Tuesday an EU-wide inquiry was needed too.

Germany's Transport Ministry said it would send an investigative commission to study whether cars built at Volkswagen's headquarters complied with German and European emissions guidelines. Italy asked VW to prove the cars sold in that country do not contain the "defeat devices" at the center of the scandal, while Switzerland also said it would investigate Volkswagen's diesel vehicle emissions tests."

In Asia, South Korea's environment ministry said it would investigate 4,000 to 5,000 of Volkswagen's Jetta, Golf and Audi A3 vehicles produced in 2014 and 2015, and it could expand its probe to all German diesel cars if it found problems."

http://www.reuters.com/article/2015/09/22/us-usa-volkswagen-idUSKCN0RL0II20150922

 

[Kedis82ZE8]

Volkswagen scandal could kill off diesel cars

"The Volkswagen scandal could spell the end of the diesel engine, experts have predicted, as the fallout from the firm’s falsification of emissions data spread around the world and piled further pressure on its chief executive.
The investment house Bernstein said the scandal “probably does” signal the end of diesel, after several decades of the European authorities promoting the fuel on the grounds that it produces less carbon dioxide than gasoline.
More than half of all new cars sold throughout Europe run on diesel engines, making the impact of the rigged nitrogen oxide readings in the US and possibly further afield over the past six years even more stark.
“The move against VW is going to act as a catalyst to speed up the fall in diesel market share in Europe and halt it in the US,” Bernstein said in a note to clients. “In fact, regulators will now be much more conservative about what they permit and much tougher real world tests may prove either too difficult – or too expensive – for diesel to meet.”

 

[Kedis82ZE8]

Wired: VW Owners Aren’t Going to Like the Fixes for Their Diesels

Slap on the Urea Tank
VW’s unlikely to embrace that option, because adding hardware to half a million cars would be far more expensive than a computer update. It wouldn’t be any fun for the TDI owner, either. Not only do you have to spend an afternoon with your local dealer, you have to make room for the tank. That could mean sacrificing cargo space or giving up the spare tire.

Dodge the Recall
It’s not crazy to think state agencies or NHTSA would flag them, and refuse to issue a new registration, or let them pass a smog test, unless proof of a fix is offered. “It should be fairly easy to police,” says Matt DeLorenzo, managing editor of news at Kelley Blue Book.

 

[SirWanker]

Umm, no. This is how the air quality un our nations city was (and is) being cleaned up, one micro-gram/hr at a time. It's not the individual emissions of an individual trip that is the problem, it's the collective emissions. The regulations only work because they apply to all new vehicles. Your argument assumes that an individual should improve their community only in ways that are immediately visible and that we shouldn't worry about the problems that are only a problem in the collective. By that method of reasoning we don't need sewage treatment plants either because one little s*** in the big bay isn't going to hurt anyone. Oh, yeah, and hundreds of seals are already pooping there anyway.

The facts remain, pollution is a cumulative problem, people actually die early deaths from it, and therefore the EPA would be falling down on the job to not take violations like this seriously. Particularly since the violations were willful and blatant way of gaining a competitive advantage over those who played by the rules, rules that save real lives. And prosecutors would not be out of line to ask for the statutory penalties that apply, including prison time for the architects of this elaborate fraud on the people.

Then what is your view about the off-shoring of manufacturing plants to countries that lack "rules that save real lives"?
Just because the pollution is occurring on another continent does not mean it will not affect you directly/immediately.
What about the American GM executives who willfully hid a major safety issue until they were caught red-handed?
Or the idiot American bankers who perpetrated the 2008 mortgage fiasco?

 

[Kedis82ZE8]

Looks like some political fights in German gov't itself.... (translated by Google)

http://www.faz.net/aktuell/wirtscha...von-abgas-skandal-gewusst-haben-13818304.html

"The Greens have accused the Federal Government to have known for a long time by the possible manipulation in fuel consumption and exhaust emissions. This should prove a paper of the Ministry of Transport"

 

[MikeM.]

Then what is your view about the off-shoring of manufacturing plants to countries that lack "rules that save real lives"?

Obviously I think it's bad. What's your point?

Just because the pollution is occurring on another continent does not mean it will not affect you directly/immediately.

I would hope that is self-evident to all. What's your point?

What about the American GM executives who willfully hid a major safety issue until they were caught red-handed?

What about them? What's your point?

Or the idiot American bankers who perpetrated the 2008 mortgage fiasco?

If you have a point, just come out and say it. I can't read your mind.

 

[magnumP5]

MagnumP5, I saw in an earlier post that the TDI is actually your wife's car. Have you had her read the info that's been released? If the info is presented in a neutral way (just the facts) I think it would be fair and important to have her input.

Sorry I missed this. It's our car but her daily driver since she currently drives 90 mi/day and I do 10. I've put maybe 20k of the 84k miles on it over the past 5 years. That said, she's aware, and feels the same way I do. Strangely, she's even less apologetic about than I am. I have a bit of remorse owning a car that pollutes more than initially thought, but I'm more worried about potential secondary effects (e.g. vandalism). Her main concern is fuel economy so as long as that's maintained she'll be happy. She's had an un-explainable fascination with VW Jettas since the MkIV...

Wired: VW Owners Aren’t Going to Like the Fixes for Their Diesels

Slap on the Urea Tank
VW’s unlikely to embrace that option, because adding hardware to half a million cars would be far more expensive than a computer update. It wouldn’t be any fun for the TDI owner, either. Not only do you have to spend an afternoon with your local dealer, you have to make room for the tank. That could mean sacrificing cargo space or giving up the spare tire.

Dodge the Recall
It’s not crazy to think state agencies or NHTSA would flag them, and refuse to issue a new registration, or let them pass a smog test, unless proof of a fix is offered. “It should be fairly easy to police,” says Matt DeLorenzo, managing editor of news at Kelley Blue Book.

I wouldn't necessarily be opposed to a "slap-on" urea tank. I'm sure the German engineers can come up with a simple, yet elegant solution. Put it in the trunk. Ever seen the trunk of a MkV Jetta? They're enormous! On the second topic, wow Matt DeLorenzo is clearly showing his ignorance! Even outside the VW TDI market it's super-easy to re-program modern ECU/ECM's. In my current location I wouldn't even have to go that far since neither emissions nor yearly "safety" inspections are conducted. I could simply ignore the recall notice (as I've done with other vehicles) and go on with life as usual.

 

[Kedis82ZE8]

VW is understood to have hired BP oil spill lawyers as more US states launch investigations