Are there compelling performance mods for the 2.5??

Mike, if you asked a physiologist they would tell you that what you drive is a reflection on your personality. I drive a gray car, what do you drive?
http://www.carinsurance.com/Articles/content228.aspx

I think you mean a psychologist. It was gray cars for me until I realized just how many people pull right out in front of gray cars because a lot of people don't know how to really "look". They may "look" but they don't really see. Now it's white for me all the way (which would be my second choice anyway). My last three new cars were all white, even when I had to pay more for that absence of color. Yellow is more visible but I just don't like yellow cars that much.
 
Yes, psychologist is what that was supposed to be (autocorrect). White would have been my second choice because to me white always looks nice. I can't say I've had an oblivious driver pull out in front of me but I can see your point in that gray might not be as visible.

So sorry for going off topic. We were writing about performance mods for the 2.5.
 
So sorry for going off topic. We were writing about performance mods for the 2.5.

Oh, hardly off topic. Color can affect 0-60 times just as much as a new exhaust or intake. Red looks fast even standing still! Of course the short ram intake adds to the perception of speed just from the volume of the intake sound. Hell, even a nice deep blue color can do as much for your pedal to the metal acceleration as a good cat back exhaust.
 
..... Wouldn't you rather take a vehicle like the Mazda Speed 3 or a Volkswagen GTI and customize that instead? .... but an economy SUV is just weird ....

Both have their place in a panoply of street mods. When I was in high school some guys liked to make a sleeper... building off a LeMans or the Vista Cruiser. The interior would be trick, the motor would be hot, but the outside was just plain old... plain. The guys driving into town showing off their new GTO Judge, Super Bee, Camaro SS, whatever had no idea who...or what... lined up next to them at a stoplight. Very embarrasing.

That was possible because engineering teams who created the hot models: the GTO... had to put a de-tuned version of the same basic engine in certain trims of the family car model variant... the LeMans... in order to get it past management. If you found a car with the building blocks in place all you had to do was bolt on the appropriate mods bam, you created a monster. And that's just as true today as then and that's the canvas a modder/customizer is looking for today.

The 2.5L SA-g, and CX-5, is a brand new design so modders are going to poke and prod at this thing to find out what's possible. There has certainly been a lot of history with other Mazda engines to suggest gains are possible. I personally think headers, cat-backs and intakes won't net much but the sound improvement alone will be an enticement even if it drops performance. Most performance auto reviews devote at least one, sometimes several, paragraphs extolling the virtues of the exhaust tone and intake roar of the model under scrutiny, or lack thereof. So yah, that's important.

I don't even think aftermarket turbos are going to net much and if they did it will doubtless kill durability because of the extreme lightening Mazda's performed on internals. I note that they claim the 2.0 shares almost no parts with the 2.5: that strongly suggest the crank and rods have only sufficient margin for Mazda's purposes. Which, in the current models doesn't include turbo.

If there IS nothing to get out of this, the excitement will wain and either CX-5 will carve itself a niche in family car history a la CRV, RAV4, or it will die.
 
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OK, I'll bite. Do you have a performance tune for a 2.0L AWD CX-5? What are the 0-60 mph numbers?


All my tunes are custom tailored to each individual vehicle. I don't do shelf tunes. Unless some specifically asks for such. And doesn't want the best possible calibration for their vehicle.

Typical HP/TQ gains range from 10-20% over the vehicle without a tune. So 0-60 times will decrease a decent amount post tune.


Billet and Forged means nothing as far as the ultimate strength of a part is concerned. Billet just means a "block" of something, and billet steel can actually be stronger than forged steel depending on the material used. I'm assuming the OV folks will be using billet Aluminum instead of steel, which will yield much lighter parts, less rotating mass and in theory a faster spooling motor. I'd love to see what they come up with.

I don't agree.

Forged parts are 'beat' into a near-net shape by the process which leaves the metal denser, more tightly compacted, usually in the areas where you want the greatest strength: in the radiuses. Final machining is designed to preserve the inherent strength imparted by forging.

A billet is machined into it's useful shape and that removes large volumes of metal that were compacted by the processes (rolling, forging) that left it in the billet shape. Also, machining can leave stress risers that weaken the part, especially in radiuses, so there have to be secondary processes to preserve strength there.

Not to say either one is worse or better, it all depends on ultimate strength and load paths, but generally you can get a lighter weight, more reliably strong part by starting from a proper forging vs. a hog-out.

Hog-outs are easy because CNC machines shops all over accept IGES files that any engineering student can generate from their CAD designs with very little investment. Making the dies for a proper forging can be very expensive and time consuming. Aerospace makes both hog-outs and expensive forgings for one-off parts all the time, but to maintain highest fatigue design life margins with the lightest possible part they use a forging. They totally would not do that if there was no advantage to doing so.



The main thing to focus on when looking at parts that are advertised as billet or forged is which specific material either one is/was being made out of.

Billet alone means nothing but "it was cut out of a square chunk of material". That's really it.

Both have been cast at some point in manufacturing in order to get it to the consumer.

If a Forged and Billet part were made out of the same exact material. The actual tensile strength would be equal or in favor of the Forged piece.

However....castability is where Billet process has an advantage. Making Billet parts, you are not locked into having to use materials with a higher castability to like forged parts because forged parts need to be able to be cast into the forging dies to be made. Whereas the Billet is cut from a big block.

But, I'll let you in on a little secret. Lots of companies boasting billet parts over forged are not using the Billet process to their advantage by using stronger materials that are not really castable. They are using the same material as the Forged parts. And advertising Billet. Or more so marketing it as better by use of the word "Billet".

Just do your research on what you're buying. Because half the companies making billet parts. Are still using weaker than available materials for the process. Why? Cost effectivness and naive consumer base.



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When I said changing rods might net you a few I was being very very optimistic

Doubtful that not much is left with a turbo. Lol. More air + fuel = more power

Not much might be left on the stock bottom end and I wouldn't run boost on something with this high of a compression ratio. but I'd think you could Add boost and with a new bottom end take down the compression ratio and get more rugged bottom end parts while your at it. Very expensive endeavor but your probably just whacking the weasel doing anything else. Probably the only way to see real gains. But I wouldn't do a rebuilt bottom end without a power adder I don't think much is left while naturally aspirated. That would be some expensive weasel whacking not a matter of customization. Unless your facing a rebuild anyway.

Not surprised a tune can net a bit. can you post dyno curves? Just curious how the before and after look
 
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Well ovtuning has started dyno tuning a guys Miata ND. So far they ot 15hp/tq from a baseline tune. That means more is to come as it's dialed in.
 
Holy Smokes! Does the 25hp & 30 ft/lb increase translate to 35hp & 40 ft/lb increase on the 2.5 (boom04)
result wise, on the 2.5 mz3/6 the results are about the same typically as what he got form that 2.0 but there are also differences between header/exhaust too. I keep telling people who are asking for more power a tune is worth it. I love this forum, it's my first and I will continue to support it but the truth is there are more performance and enthusiast oriented communities (including many face book groups, among which you will often find the same people in different groups) to find people who actually have tuned sky's and mzr's and other cars of coruse (not just form orange virus tuning) and hearing actual customer feedback versus coming here and hearing a select few insist otherwise, with no basis other than some wisdom they swear is the truth. They have a large volume of people who actually know what they are talking about (not hat we don't have some very engine/mechanically savvy people here) vs googling and repeating and you can tell the difference. People like Brian, the guy who had Mat come out to his place in another state and tune his car on his OWN dyno (obviously this guy has played his card right throughout his life) are the enthusiasts who help car communities grow, help with developments which are passed onto other fellow enthusiasts who share a passion for their cars, regardless in what capacity they use them for. Personally for me that was being the first person to give OVTuning a Skyactiv 2.5 dump file from which to create a base file and developed into the outstanding tunes for 2.5 skys in all mazdas.

I'll put it out there again; any reputable tuner tuning skyactiv (of which there are very few notable individuals in the US as far as having widespread positive feedback) will be able to net you at least 15/15 from a skyactiv 2.0. The number increases based on any supporting mod and fuel used, which generally has been a gain of around 25/25 upwards of 30 among different tuners. Also keep in mind that your 185 advertised motor is not putting down 185whp. It ranges from a cost of $500-1500 depending on your country and who you go through.
 
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Keep nay saying and be content with the 115-120 whp from your 2.0.

I don't understand your comment. My comment was that it would be unrealistic to expect that the 25% greater displacement of the 2.5L vs. the 2.0L would lead to 40% more gain in HP just from a tune that requires premium fuel and pipe. Do you disagree with that? If so why?

And why do you take things so personally (almost as if my honest analysis is somehow hurtful to your manliness or self-worth)?
 
I don't understand your comment. My comment was that it would be unrealistic to expect that the 25% greater displacement of the 2.5L vs. the 2.0L would lead to 40% more gain in HP just from a tune that requires premium fuel and pipe. Do you disagree with that? If so why?

Here's an alternative way to look at the math. Stock 2.0 horsepower of 155 + tuned increase of 25 = 180hp. 180hp / 2 liters = 90hp per liter. 90hp x 2.5 liters = 225hp (boom04) 225hp - 184hp = 41hp increase
 
Here's an alternative way to look at the math. Stock 2.0 horsepower of 155 + tuned increase of 25 = 180hp. 180hp / 2 liters = 90hp per liter. 90hp x 2.5 liters = 225hp (boom04) 225hp - 184hp = 41hp increase

That's a creative mathematical way to look at it but you're not going to get 225hp out of the 2.5L simply by slapping on a different exhaust and some software (tune). To achieve that, the redline would need to be increased (by quite a bit) and, to benefit from the higher redline entails a whole bunch of mods that go beyond a tune/pipe. It's not possible with just a tune/pipe on that engine.


The reason your math doesn't work is the 2.0L is inherently more efficient in terms of HP/liter because of factors that cannot be mitigated with a tune/pipe. The 2.5L was scaled up from the 2.0L but some practical compromises were made and the scaling has built in compromises. This is because, as you scale an engine design up, even a clean-sheet scaling as was done with the Skyactiv engine family, certain undesirable things start to happen. Peak piston speeds (and accelerations) become higher and with the extra weight of the bigger pistons, peak forces grow even faster. This is why the 2.5L needs dual balance shafts and the 2.0L does not. But the balance shafts can only cancel out the vibration, they can't reduce the peak forces of a heavier piston moving at higher speeds. For this reason the design was not scaled proportionately. The compromises were made in order to reduce peak piston speeds (at any given rpm), specifically, by not increasing stroke length in proportion with the bore. So the bore becomes larger than in the case of a proportionate scaling while the stroke is shorter than a proportionate scaling would achieve. In terms of HP/liter this might be thought of as a good thing because the shorter stroke reduces piston speeds and allows higher rpm's. However, recall that this change was made simply to be able to maintain the SAME rpm's as the 2.0L without needing to use even more expensive (and exotic) engine internals. So the rpm's stay the same and this divergence from a proportional scaling yields no improvement in the HP/liter figure, instead, it yields slightly less because the combustion chamber is not the ideal proportion for this engine design (the proportion of the 2.0L was designed to be the most thermodynamically efficient, as well as being the most manageable in terms of controlling detonation at the high compression ratio). Peak power of the 2.0L is at 6000 rpm's while the 2.5L starts to fall off at 5700 rpm's.

And of course there is the friction and momentum of the twin balance shafts that reduce power efficiency but that is secondary to the primary reasons above. Taken together, these reasons are why the stock 2.0 liter is able to make 77.5 HP/liter while the 2.5L can only make 73.6hp/liter (note: these are slightly rough numbers based on 2.0L and 2.5L rather than the exact displacements). If the 2.5L had as good of a HP/displacement ratio, the stock engine would be rated at 194hp instead of 184hp. The bottom line is that the 2.5L engine would need more than a tune/pipe to achieve 41 more hp. It's simple physics.

But it would not be difficult for a tuner to produce charts showing that much gain (and some people would believe them to be accurate). It would probably be quite profitable.
 
That's a creative mathematical way to look at it but you're not going to get 225hp out of the 2.5L simply by slapping on a different exhaust and some software (tune). To achieve that, the redline would need to be increased (by quite a bit) and, to benefit from the higher redline entails a whole bunch of mods that go beyond a tune/pipe. It's not possible with just a tune/pipe on that engine.


The reason your math doesn't work is the 2.0L is inherently more efficient in terms of HP/liter because of factors that cannot be mitigated with a tune/pipe. The 2.5L was scaled up from the 2.0L but some practical compromises were made and the scaling has built in compromises. This is because, as you scale an engine design up, even a clean-sheet scaling as was done with the Skyactiv engine family, certain undesirable things start to happen. Peak piston speeds (and accelerations) become higher and with the extra weight of the bigger pistons, peak forces grow even faster. This is why the 2.5L needs dual balance shafts and the 2.0L does not. But the balance shafts can only cancel out the vibration, they can't reduce the peak forces of a heavier piston moving at higher speeds. For this reason the design was not scaled proportionately. The compromises were made in order to reduce peak piston speeds (at any given rpm), specifically, by not increasing stroke length in proportion with the bore. So the bore becomes larger than in the case of a proportionate scaling while the stroke is shorter than a proportionate scaling would achieve. In terms of HP/liter this might be thought of as a good thing because the shorter stroke reduces piston speeds and allows higher rpm's. However, recall that this change was made simply to be able to maintain the SAME rpm's as the 2.0L without needing to use even more expensive (and exotic) engine internals. So the rpm's stay the same and this divergence from a proportional scaling yields no improvement in the HP/liter figure, instead, it yields slightly less because the combustion chamber is not the ideal proportion for this engine design (the proportion of the 2.0L was designed to be the most thermodynamically efficient, as well as being the most manageable in terms of controlling detonation at the high compression ratio). Peak power of the 2.0L is at 6000 rpm's while the 2.5L starts to fall off at 5700 rpm's.

And of course there is the friction and momentum of the twin balance shafts that reduce power efficiency but that is secondary to the primary reasons above. Taken together, these reasons are why the stock 2.0 liter is able to make 77.5 HP/liter while the 2.5L can only make 73.6hp/liter (note: these are slightly rough numbers based on 2.0L and 2.5L rather than the exact displacements). If the 2.5L had as good of a HP/displacement ratio, the stock engine would be rated at 194hp instead of 184hp. The bottom line is that the 2.5L engine would need more than a tune/pipe to achieve 41 more hp. It's simple physics.

But it would not be difficult for a tuner to produce charts showing that much gain (and some people would believe them to be accurate). It would probably be quite profitable.

"But it would not be difficult for a tuner to produce charts showing that much gain (and some people would believe them to be accurate). It would probably be quite profitable."

That repeated bulls*** attitude is the problem I have with your posts and why it's obvious that you have actually little insight into what's going on in the tuning community with Mazdas and the like, and are more into fulfilling your lastword/bestword attitude. Yet you comment on the subject as if your an expert and are constantly trying to make it out as if the data from many individuals (self tuners included) and tuners from different parts of the world is just skewed information intent on deceiving (snake oil as you once called it). There out to get your money, or out to prove a point with a skewered dyno.. You can't even keep your own opinion consistent. You went from calling "snake oil" and posting some articles about false dynos (which were barely in context) to seemingly agreeing on the proper use of a dyno, and now suggesting again, that the graph could be altered. Sure it could, but when Joe Schmo goes out and dyno's his car and gets a similar power change from his stock file, how does that argument even stand?? It doesn't, and these tuners would be named and shamed immediately (which has happened to a tuner who used to be fairly active here and on other mazda forums). Funny thing is, those (miata) numbers are about on par with mz3 gains floating around various forums. Engine tuning is not new and not unique to Mazda. My experience with this subject (tuning) and this engine (both 2.0 and 2.5) is based on personal experience, and the similar feedback and experience of others who also have tunes which are not all from the same source. I receive a lot (of information) from the Mazda community, most of which isn't CX-5 specific, so I definitely will share something that works and is affordable for those who are interested. As far as engine mods go, a tune is the ONLY single purchase that independent of any other aftermarket part will net any appreciable power gain or change in power delivery. If it didn't I wouldn't be recommending it. If something doesn't work I will let it be known, and I have from my own experience or from another owners experience. Not regurgitating information I read online or in a magazine and throwing it out there as if I knew it first hand, or throwing up a bunch of links to try to prove my point of view. And then giving a one liner response when I've reached the limit of my knowledge on the subject. It's the same on other topics too. Everyone is entitled to their opinion but you seem to try and voice a very knowledgeable opinion on every topic you comment on without actually knowing the details and then arguing that opinion down the line. aka Mr. Know-it-all.
 
That repeated bulls*** attitude is the problem I have with your posts and why it's obvious that you have actually little insight into what's going on in the tuning community with Mazdas and the like, and are more into fulfilling your lastword/bestword attitude.


Chris, are you are saying that a 41 HP gain (225hp) for the Skyactiv 2.5L is a credible outcome for a software tune/exhaust/91 octane?

Even given that difference of opinion, I don't understand your attitude and why you need to try to turn a technical discussion about realistic performance expectations into a personal pissing match. My point that it's possible for a dyno chart to show that much gain (without it being accurate) was simply to point out that a chart does not prove that the laws of physics can be violated. It's pretty obvious I didn't accuse anyone here of manipulating data, but it's well known that it happens. In fact, it's not even rare. These are cold hard facts. Nobody has even produced such a chart (2.5L showing 225hp with tune/exhaust/91 octane) we are just discussing whether it's possible. I've made my case that it's not. If you want to stick to the topic at hand and avoid the personal accusations and insults, I'm all ears but if your only goal is to change the subject and insult, well, I'm not going to play your game.

(drive2)
 
Mike, you do realize factory tunes are extremely conservative, right? Thanks to EPA regulations and companies not wanting their engines to suffer damage, a tune on a stock vehicle doesn't nearly come close to the engines potential.
So why do you think it's impossible to gain 40 hp from a tune/exhaust combination? Advance timing, add more fuel and change some other maps around and it's not that hard to see why you could gain some noticeable HP increase. Whether or not it's safe over the long run is a different conversation entirely but we're not talking about that.
You keep saying data is manipulated. Does that imply EVERY aftermarket company lies? Because that's what you're saying. Borla has dyno charts of before and after exhaust installs. COBB tunning does the same with their products, etc. These companies would've been sued a long time ago if their products weren't delivering what they said they were.
Laws of physics...you're funny.
BTW, you're not going to have 225 hp measured on the dyno. Due to friction and hp loss through the drivetrain, the dyno will only show HP at the wheels but I'm sure you already know that. So, if you have 185 BHP and take an average loss of 15% hp(even that's been proven wrong because there is no way to calculate the average hp loss in all vehicles) you have roughly a 28 hp loss netting you 157 whp. Adding 40 hp to the stock 185 bhp with said loss of 15% would net 190 whp. Again, how does that not seem feasible?
 
You guys seem to all be focusing on the peak horsepower numbers but what really matters is the total area under the curve over the entire rpm range. Peak numbers only tell you a small portion of the story. Mike may have a point about the RPM limitations of the 2.5 liter engine but the advantage of the larger engine is its ability to produce more torque and especially lower RPM torque. Mike may be right that it's not likely that you'll gain 40% more peak horsepower from a stock 2.5 with just a tune but it's possible that the 2.5 could easily make 40% more torque somewhere in the range from 2000 rpm through 5000 rpm over a tuned 2.0 liter engine.

The peak power differences between my stock Mazda 5 with the older 2.5 vs my old CX5 with the 2.0 mill was just 2 horsepower and in an all out race the Mazda 5 was slower. The differences in real world everyday driving though between those two engines was much greater. In every day driving the old school Mazda 2.5 with just a five speed auto felt more responsive and energetic than the CX5 with the 2.0 did. If I didn't have my G-tech to verify it I would have sweared that the Mazda 5 was the faster car in an all out race. This was because in the lower revs that are mostly used in every day driving the 2.5 was the more powerful engine because even though the skyactiv 2.0 was more efficient the 2.5 just had a more usable fatter torque curve in the rpm range that I use most. I also must say that my Skyactive 2.5 has such great low end torque that I don't think I could ever go back to a Skyactiv 2.0 if I was given the choice again. I liked my 2.0 for its efficiency but I love this 2.5 for the very noticeable increase in torque with hardly a penalty in efficiency worth talking about.
 
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