Mazda 5 engine ticking... is this a time bomb?

jmcglynn

Member
In recent months my 2006 Mazda 5 (manual) has developed a "ticking" sound from the engine. It's hard to detect when the windows are up, but with the windows down, you can hear it (especially as the sound bounces back off curbs and fences). It's consistent with engine RPM. You can't hear it when accelerating under load, or when you're coasting, but hear it when you're pressing or holding the throttle to maintain speed on a basically flat roadway. We're getting close to 57,000 miles. If this was my old analog Chevy V8, I'd say it needed a valve adjustment. Since then I've driven a lot of little 4 cylinders a lot of miles, and don't ever recall having to get an old-school valve adjustment... I didn't think these new engines needed valve adjustments. Then again, This is my first Mazda, and my first 16-valve engine. I see the Maintenance schedule calls for an audible check of valve clearance every 75,000 miles. Then again, we do drive it pretty enthusiastically. Is this something I should be concerned about? Or does it sound like a basic adjustment issue? I need to get at least 200,000 miles out of this car. Plus, I just don't want to sound like an idiot when I take it into Service and have to explain what I hear...

Cheers all,
John
 
I also hear the ticking it mine is usually on 5th gear and pressing on the gas to accelerate instead of down shifting. So mine is under load. I called my buddy at Mazda and he said it was the intake runners due to some carbon build up and making them chatter a bit. He said there is no ill effect unless you start experiencing very rough idle, very poor fuel consumption or a substantial amount of power loss. He says the only way to get rid of this chatter is either get a intake manifold/throttle body cleaning and if that doesn't help, then replacing the complete intake manifold would be necessary since the runners are built in to the manifold. So, quoting his words "unless you are having those harsh conditions I mentioned, don't worry about it"
 
Apologies for not getting back to this sooner...
Oil and filter are OEM as I've always had it serviced at my Mazda dealer. Truth be told... they did seem to under-fill the oil at the last service. Thinking that could be the issue, I topped it off right away. I've had cars that have got tickey valves due to low oil, but typically went away once it was filled.

Obviously more information is better to help diagnose this (as asked above), but I'm not sure what it is you want to know. I press the throttle, and I get a ticking sound from the engine. I let up on the throttle and the ticking either goes away (or becomes less audible so I can't hear it).

I've been searching through other sections of this forum, and have two possible theories:
The engine needs a valve adjustment
The exhaust manifold is loose

And there's also the post above that says it's the carbon build-up on the intake runners... Performance doesn't seem to be lacking, nor does MPG.

So... let me know what else I can tell you so we can sort out what's going on...

Thanks
 
Apologies for not getting back to this sooner...
Oil and filter are OEM as I've always had it serviced at my Mazda dealer. Truth be told... they did seem to under-fill the oil at the last service. Thinking that could be the issue, I topped it off right away. I've had cars that have got tickey valves due to low oil, but typically went away once it was filled.

Obviously more information is better to help diagnose this (as asked above), but I'm not sure what it is you want to know. I press the throttle, and I get a ticking sound from the engine. I let up on the throttle and the ticking either goes away (or becomes less audible so I can't hear it).

I've been searching through other sections of this forum, and have two possible theories:
The engine needs a valve adjustment
The exhaust manifold is loose

And there's also the post above that says it's the carbon build-up on the intake runners... Performance doesn't seem to be lacking, nor does MPG.

So... let me know what else I can tell you so we can sort out what's going on...

Thanks

I don't know enough about this particular engine to really elaborate, but on my old MX3, the engine had hydraulic lash adjusters that would cause the engine to tick if they wore out. The ticking goes away when you give it gas when they first start going. I wouldn't expect it on a car with ~60K miles, but anything's possible if it involves hundreds of mechanical parts working together.

I'd have the dealer look at it. I'm assuming you're now past the 60K warranty mark, so you'll have to pay for an adjustment if it's required. I would also look at using a good synthetic oil instead of the OEM dino oil.
 
Well... if my dealer is to be believed... they're saying the ticking is coming from a worn rod at the back of the engine. Their recommendation... replace the engine... for about $7000. It amazes me that they can say this with a straight face, like I'm just going to whip out my checkbook and say, "OK... let's do it".

I understand these engines are much more complex than those of previous generations... but seriously... to say there's no way to repair the problem without replacing the engine? I know... it's all cost-benefit ratios and liability if it doesn't work... blah blah blah.

Sad to say, this is actually consistent with another thread I read on this forum (I just can't remember where...)... only the poor guy in that thread said his dealer actually started tearing down the engine without giving them permission...

Bottom line... the answer to this question is "yes... it's a ticking time bomb." A real disappointment considering this particular dealer has always done the service on this vehicle, and that it hasn't given any indication of trouble until now. Yet somehow they're not culpable in this?

So... regardless of what this dealer has to say... any other thoughts or ideas? I like the idea of using a good synthetic oil. In the meantime I need to rethink my whole long term plan with this vehicle. The sad thing is, I really liked this car... small outside, big inside, available with a manual... but with an issue like this, do I risk getting another one? Looking for any advice.
 
Second and/or third opinion. I don't buy their diagnosis. Start with the synth oil see if it helps.
 
If they say you have a worn rod I'm guessing they're thinking it's a bad bearing- send a sample of your oil out for analysis and see if you have any rod/main bearing bits swimming around in your oil. That'll cost you about $30 and be worth the non-dealership opinion on your engine wear.

http://www.blackstone-labs.com

Try the synthetic oil. Check valve lash (assuming ours has the adjustments, I haven't checked mine, but all my Hondas do). Check injectors- they can get noisy sometimes, and could match up to your "ticking on gas, quiet when letting off" statement. You can usually get them cleaned/flowmatched for under $100 at quite a few shops- the oil change place close to my house when I lived in Austin offered this service for $60 on 4 injectors.

As far as longevity, I bought my MY2009 5 with 52k on it and now have driven it over 25k in a year- and I drive it like I stole it (other car is an S2000, so I really flog the 5). At 75k miles the engine makes zero funky noises, but I have been running it on Pennzoil Platinum since I got it.
 
I call timing chain. A bit of lube may quiet it down if it bugs you.

I'm not a car expert though. I thought the fuel pump in my Mazda MPV went when in fact it was a timing belt.
 
Thanks for the advice so far. I definitely need to get a second opinion... I just need to find a place I can trust to do it. That said, I've read a few other posts and complaints that do seem to match mine, so I'm not hopeful.

I think using a synthetic oil at this point is a good move. It won't make the problem go away, but it should hopefully help slow the damage. I'll post when I have more news. In the meantime I'm eager to hear any other comments or advice. I have to admit, as much as I love this car, I've got a real urge to cut my losses and run away from it as fast as I can...
 
OK, I'm seeing a problem here. We need to back up.

You say the dealer tells you that it's a rod. Well the rod is not at the top of the engine. Is the sound at the top? The bottom? Where?

Secondly, a rod making noise doesn't require a replacement engine unless you drive it until the rod comes apart and proceeds to place itself through the side of the block. It can be fixed. And it won't cost $7000.
 
And to add to Robotaz....a bad rod will make noise ALL the time not just under load. And true if it is a "rod" as they call it. It can be replaced easily by dropping the oil pan. Probably no more then $1000 including parts and labor rate at a dealership.
 
Yep... you guys are absolutely right! They said it was at the back of the engine... OK... but where? What rod specifically? What's it look like? I was giving this some thought last night, and it just doesn't make any sense... you hear a noise and they tell you you need a new engine? In my experience, when a car needs a new engine, it usually isn't able to drive in and out of the shop all by itself. I've never rebuilt an engine, but I've spent enough time taking apart cars to know that most bad parts can be replaced... and I know enough about engines to know when someone is telling me the truth about a problem.

So here's one thing I'm going to do... I'm going to go back to the dealer, and ask them to explain to me the exact nature of the problem... ask them to show me the engine diagrams, and point to the exact "rod" that's gone bad. I also want them to explain to me how such a problem could occur in the first place. I don't expect them to own up to a factory defect, but I want to hear what they have to say. If they can't at least point specifically to the problem and explain it to me, then they've failed in their task to convince me why I should spend so much to replace the engine.


One thing I know for a fact... no Mazda dealer is EVER going to crack open an engine to do a repair. They don't want to take on that level of liability. This sort of investigation and repair just isn't on their pricing sheet, and their techs are not trained to do this level of detail work. It's much easier for them to wash their hands and say you need a new motor. In fact, I dare anyone to find a dealer-certified shop that would do that kind of work anymore.

So... step one, have them show me on all the diagrams and charts where this problem is.
Step two, find another mechanic to give me a second opinion.
Step three... determine the extent of the damage and what it would really take to fix it.

This ain't over yet...
 
OK guys... here's an update.

First, this morning I talked with the service tech, the service writer, and the service manager. I brought along an engine diagram and asked them to explain, point by point, what they did, where these parts are, and how they came to this conclusion. They were, much to my surprise, very cooperative (although why they didn't tell me all this when I picked up the car the first time is a whole other issue... but I digress).

Basically, they put the car up on a rack, and did a full audio inspection top to bottom of the engine (like a doctor with a stethoscope). He said the noise is a rod knock coming from the bottom of the engine. Top of the engine sounds fine. There was nothing unusual from the oil that was drained from the pan... no particulates or shavings that would indicate a serious problem. That said, they did not pull the pan to do any further inspection, explaining that this is a "more invasive" and time consuming (4 hour) job that would not change their recommendation. Mazda typically will not crack an engine because doing so can lead to a variety of escalating issues. In their words, they don't want that kind of liability, so their standard procedure is just to replace the motor (which by their own statements is not that unusual for them... really? Are that many Mazda motors going bad that a flat-out replacement is commonplace? I suppose if it's under warranty, it's the simplest thing to do... but really?).

As to what caused the problem... most likely caused by lack of maintenance or lack of oil. Considering they have done all the maintenance on a consistent and exclusive basis, I've asked them to pull all the service records and give me copies. As far as lack of oil... there are no visible oil leaks, so if there is a lack of oil, it could only be because they didn't fill it enough during regular maintenance (not that they would admit to that). Or another possibility is that the oil pressure isn't sufficient. The tech noted that these engines run on oil pressure... meaning that sufficient oil and good oil pressure is critical to their survival (understandable given their size, loading, and cast-aluminum construction... lubrication and cooling are critical... no margin for error since the specs are so tight).

I also queried a Mazda tech online (http://Mazda.JustAnswer.com)... very helpful, though it did cost me $18. I walked him through everything I've discovered here, even asked some of his questions of the tech this morning. Essentially, he concurred with my current findings... Since the oil seems clean, there's probably no metal shavings or damage to the core, and that at this point it most likely is just a bad rod bearing. Of course, someone still has to pull the pan to find out for sure. So... best case, it's like Davicho says above... pull the pan, find out what's gone bad, and fix it (I think I would replace the oil pump too just to be sure). Worst case, they find metal bits inside, and it's pretty much DOA, but given that the sound has only just recently appeared, and isn't constant, the damage is likely not anywhere that severe (yet).

So, for now we park it until I've had a chance to go through all the service records. Assuming that there is a solid record of performing all recommended maintenance at appropriate intervals, I can state my case to Mazda Corp. and see if I can't get them to give me a new engine. If for some reason my maintenance record has any questionable holes (like not getting an oil change within the factory recommended service interval), then I'm on my own, and need to find someone trustworthy to crack it open, have a look, and assuming things are not as dire as Mazda says, do the repair.

The real question now is... do I still care enough after all of this to want to deal with it... or do I just dump it and run away?
 
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I think someone earlier recommended an oil analysis to see if you have rod bearing wear. If you send your oil to Blackstone and tell them what you are looking for, they will address that particular concern directly. If you get a positive result, I would have a trusted mechanic drop the pan, pull the rods, and replace all of the rod bearings and anything else on the lower end that the mechanic thinks should be replaced while he's in there.

I'm still curious about the suspected poor maintenance earlier in the engine's life. Can we dig down into that any more? Call the previous owner maybe? I'm just throwing out ideas, but it would really help the community to get an idea of what really happened, assuming of course that you do have failing rod bearings.

Regardless, best of luck. This certainly isn't a fun experience for you, but it's not the end of the world. It can be fixed up like new and with proper maintenance, should last a very long time.
 
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When I bought my 5 in December of 2011 the salesman told me that all certified used Mazda vehicles come with an extended warranty up to 100k. I even received a special card indicating the warranty which I leave with my owners manual. It also has 60k bumper to bumper. I have 58k on it and it makes no noise. I have done all my own oil changes and strictly run Mobil1 oil and filter.

If you bought that from a Mazda dealer, look into the warranty. Good luck.

BTW, previous maintenance is crucial. I had to put an engine in my old B5 Passat wagon 1.8t because the p.o. used regular oil instead of synthetic. Left me and the wife stranded in Pa. Luckily I do all my own work so I just had to buy the engine.
 
Thanks for the feedback, guys. Here's an update:
Took it to a well-regarded independent shop. He road-tested the car, and says it's a spark-knock, not a rod-knock. Pulled the plugs and found quite a bit of carbon, caused by using inferior fuel (which is a favorite of my wife...). He also noted that the dealer overfilled the oil. I have to admit, based on the fact that the knock is not constant, and occurs only during that mild, maintaining-speed type of acceleration, it kind of makes some sense. If it was a rod knock, wouldn't you hear it constantly? And wouldn't it be more noticeable during full-throttle? In fact, it's quite smooth both on excel and decel.

So here's the plan... He's going to change the plugs, change the oil (making sure it's filled right and with the right oil), add some cleaner to the fuel and we'll see how it sounds for a while (making sure to use premium fuel). If the "tick" or knock goes away... problem solved. If not... take it back for a Plan B assessment. In the meantime, I've got an oil-test kit on order and will do the oil analysis.

And to follow-up on your latest comments... We bought the car new, so any issues with regard to maintenance are mine (regardless of what the Mrs may have or have not done to it). I scanned through my records, and found an 11,000 mile gap in oil changes. Don't know if that's a clerical error or an actual error, but I'm looking into it (Dealer is supposed to be pulling records). There was one time I found the oil 3 quarts low not long after getting it back from the dealer for regular service... I swear they under-filled it, but I can't prove it. Even so, fighting with Mazda about it looks to be a loosing battle right now... Warranty is long expired, and without a complete paper trail showing maintenance at least every 7500 miles (per the tier 1 schedule), I don't have much of a case with them. That said, if this other mechanic is right, it's a non-issue anyway because according to him they've completely misdiagnosed the problem (which is a whole other issue to bring up with them if that's the case...).

So... more to come. In the meantime, I appreciate any thoughts or opinions on these latest developments...
 
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OK... an update to my update...

My second mechanic is back-pedaling on his previous diagnosis of spark-knock, stating he had done what he said he would do (above) and that my "ticking" sound is still there. So it's onto Plan B... he's going to pull the pan and have a look underneath. He seemed somewhat reluctant to want to do that... what's up with mechanics not wanting to do this? I understand that it's a $500 job, but I really need to find out what's going on down there and at this point I don't know any other way to verify what's going on. Part of me want's to say, "it's about damn time", but the other part of me is saying, "what have I gotten myself into...".

Will post more as I learn more... In the meantime I want to give a shout-out to flcruising on the "dead battery" post for posting a link to download a series of tech manuals. Always a great help looking at pictures.
http://www.mediafire.com/?wgev1ww9dc1c27g
 
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11k mile gap on an oil change shouldn't hurt you if you used a good synthetic oil. Other than that, I really hope you don't have a bad bearing/rod. Most mechanics aren't going to want to pull an oil pan "just to look inside" because you start getting to the point where you have to buy/replace parts that aren't cheap (or easy to find sometimes), just because you took things apart.
 
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