My Hypertech Impressions
- Thread starter Darth Vader
- Start date
Chris@Hypertech
Member
Hey everyone, I've been out of the office for a few days. Just got back today, and trying to catch up. I'll try to respond to all the questions. If I miss something, just ask again. I'll be on here every day for the rest of the week.
Hey guys also wanted to add that my first run I let the car cool for over an hour and between the HT run and the stock tune run it sat for close to 35 minutes. Just wanted to throw that out there so guys don't think I ran it heat soaked. An spoke to Chris a lengthy conversation today about various things on the dyno and the fueling issue no not really that bad.. As some of you guys say here the DIS motor needs to stay really cool and as long as I'm not blowing black smoke out the exhaust the A/F's fine and keeping things safe. This is the same thing Chris said.
Chris@Hypertech
Member
I've looked over the dyno charts and comments by anm6 and MS3JamOnIt, and talked to anm6 via phone a bit today. Here's my observations on their dyno pulls.
Air/Fuel Ratios: The air fuel ratios they are seeing are in line with what we got on our car. Actual stock AFR's at wide open throttle, above 4500 RPM, are in the mid to low 10's, and can dip into the 9's. This engine is is different than most engines, and tunes, that dyno shops are used to tuning. It is direct injected, so the fuel atomizes a lot better than with a port injected type engine. There simply isn't any issue with the cylinders washing out or causing a misfire or dropping spark with our tune at WOT with this engine. I can elaborate further if needed.
Air/Fuel Ratios with "Stock" Tune: The AFR's staying in the 11's with the "stock" tune are actually lean. This is being caused by an incorrect MAF calibration. With the stock air box and stock tune, your AFR's would be in the 10's at WOT. When you install an aftermarket intake, and don't correct the MAF calibrations, the stock tune is going to lean out at wide open throttle. The computer will correct the AFR's at part throttle with the fuel trims, but at wide open throttle, the ECU is adding the amount of fuel based solely on the air and load calculations from the mass air sensor. Running the aftermarket intake with a correctly calibrated MAF sensor with the stock tune would result in AFR's in the mid to low 10's at WOT.
Dyno Testing: One of the critical issues when dyno testing these cars is heat soak. With the intercooler being mounted on top of the engine, it is easy to get heat soak between dyno runs. The trick is to maintain consistency between the pulls. When you start seeing power drop off between pulls, then you're probably getting some knock retard. Even a slight bit of KR will reduce power output considerably. When we were tuning our car, we had to fabricate a bracket to mount an axial fan directly on top of the intercooler to keep fresh air coming through it. Here's a pic of it on our car.
If you make back to back pulls, and your power numbers are off more than 3-4 HP between them with no changes, then there is something else going on.
Having the hood up and the fan on the car might not be helping that much. A lot of dyno shops have the rollers to the rear of the bay, so that the front of the car is facing the bay door. They can put a fan in front of the car, and blow fresh air across it. If the front of the car is facing the inside of the shop, then its likely that the fan is just circulating the heated air. The radiant heat coming up from the engine compartment is being blown around by the fan, and is just being sucked in by the engine and intercooler.
Power Gains: Something else to look at is what RPM you're starting the dyno pull. With these cars, you need to start the pull as low of a RPM as you can. If you look at our dyno chart, we started ours around 1100 RPM. This allows the turbo to spool up to full boost. A 2 wheel chassis dyno doesn't put the same load on the engine that is on it when you are driving down the road. The rollers are a lot lighter than the weight of the car, and the RPM's come up a lot quicker. This is what is causing the torque numbers to be lower than ours.
Our max gain was made at a higher RPM than peak HP. The main benefit of aftermarket air intakes and exhaust mods on these cars is the improvement of airflow at the higher RPM ranges. The Hypertech tune takes advantage of the added airflow up top, and the numbers show it, even on a stock vehicle. You should see significant gains over stock from 6K up.
I suspect that both cars were experiencing some knock retard, although anm6has a front mounted intercooler, and let the engine cool down quite a bit between runs. I suspect that he was getting some KR due to the MAF calibration being off.
Air/Fuel Ratios: The air fuel ratios they are seeing are in line with what we got on our car. Actual stock AFR's at wide open throttle, above 4500 RPM, are in the mid to low 10's, and can dip into the 9's. This engine is is different than most engines, and tunes, that dyno shops are used to tuning. It is direct injected, so the fuel atomizes a lot better than with a port injected type engine. There simply isn't any issue with the cylinders washing out or causing a misfire or dropping spark with our tune at WOT with this engine. I can elaborate further if needed.
Air/Fuel Ratios with "Stock" Tune: The AFR's staying in the 11's with the "stock" tune are actually lean. This is being caused by an incorrect MAF calibration. With the stock air box and stock tune, your AFR's would be in the 10's at WOT. When you install an aftermarket intake, and don't correct the MAF calibrations, the stock tune is going to lean out at wide open throttle. The computer will correct the AFR's at part throttle with the fuel trims, but at wide open throttle, the ECU is adding the amount of fuel based solely on the air and load calculations from the mass air sensor. Running the aftermarket intake with a correctly calibrated MAF sensor with the stock tune would result in AFR's in the mid to low 10's at WOT.
Dyno Testing: One of the critical issues when dyno testing these cars is heat soak. With the intercooler being mounted on top of the engine, it is easy to get heat soak between dyno runs. The trick is to maintain consistency between the pulls. When you start seeing power drop off between pulls, then you're probably getting some knock retard. Even a slight bit of KR will reduce power output considerably. When we were tuning our car, we had to fabricate a bracket to mount an axial fan directly on top of the intercooler to keep fresh air coming through it. Here's a pic of it on our car.
If you make back to back pulls, and your power numbers are off more than 3-4 HP between them with no changes, then there is something else going on.
Having the hood up and the fan on the car might not be helping that much. A lot of dyno shops have the rollers to the rear of the bay, so that the front of the car is facing the bay door. They can put a fan in front of the car, and blow fresh air across it. If the front of the car is facing the inside of the shop, then its likely that the fan is just circulating the heated air. The radiant heat coming up from the engine compartment is being blown around by the fan, and is just being sucked in by the engine and intercooler.
Power Gains: Something else to look at is what RPM you're starting the dyno pull. With these cars, you need to start the pull as low of a RPM as you can. If you look at our dyno chart, we started ours around 1100 RPM. This allows the turbo to spool up to full boost. A 2 wheel chassis dyno doesn't put the same load on the engine that is on it when you are driving down the road. The rollers are a lot lighter than the weight of the car, and the RPM's come up a lot quicker. This is what is causing the torque numbers to be lower than ours.
Our max gain was made at a higher RPM than peak HP. The main benefit of aftermarket air intakes and exhaust mods on these cars is the improvement of airflow at the higher RPM ranges. The Hypertech tune takes advantage of the added airflow up top, and the numbers show it, even on a stock vehicle. You should see significant gains over stock from 6K up.
I suspect that both cars were experiencing some knock retard, although anm6has a front mounted intercooler, and let the engine cool down quite a bit between runs. I suspect that he was getting some KR due to the MAF calibration being off.
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I won't elaborate much because i don't wanna beat a dead-horse...
People that have the AP or the Standback has been running mid 11's to high 11's AFR forever on these cars. What you said regarding DI is the exact reason a lot of us don't run 10's AFR on these cars. A mid to low 10 AFR is considered RICH, let alone high 9's.
I can show you several logs of running a mid 11 AFR w/ no knock.
With regarding to the stock tune actually being "lean" in comparison to the HT, this is probably correct on the regards that the HT tune probably increases the Mass Airflow (g/s) to bring trims down and compensate for the aftermarket intake. This will in effect, richen up the mixture.
With that being said, Ann experienced 11's AFR with the stock tune because the MAF was not calibrated BUT that is NOT a lean mixture. If a stock car runs mid to low 10's and we all say it's pig rich, how's low 11's lean?
I don't know how BOOST is on some logs w/ the HT tune around 2k-2.7k but you shouldn't be seeing more than 14-15psi MAX of boost around that area, reason being this car has loads of torque down low and if you see high boost under low RPM, you car will go boom and it will throw a rod. You can start flooring any RPM you want but make sure your boost is tuned to produce low boost before 3k. BTW, this turbo is so small that it can spool up pretty quickly, i think a 2.5k rpm to start your run is not bad at all.
Just a few points i would like to get across.
People that have the AP or the Standback has been running mid 11's to high 11's AFR forever on these cars. What you said regarding DI is the exact reason a lot of us don't run 10's AFR on these cars. A mid to low 10 AFR is considered RICH, let alone high 9's.
I can show you several logs of running a mid 11 AFR w/ no knock.
With regarding to the stock tune actually being "lean" in comparison to the HT, this is probably correct on the regards that the HT tune probably increases the Mass Airflow (g/s) to bring trims down and compensate for the aftermarket intake. This will in effect, richen up the mixture.
With that being said, Ann experienced 11's AFR with the stock tune because the MAF was not calibrated BUT that is NOT a lean mixture. If a stock car runs mid to low 10's and we all say it's pig rich, how's low 11's lean?
I don't know how BOOST is on some logs w/ the HT tune around 2k-2.7k but you shouldn't be seeing more than 14-15psi MAX of boost around that area, reason being this car has loads of torque down low and if you see high boost under low RPM, you car will go boom and it will throw a rod. You can start flooring any RPM you want but make sure your boost is tuned to produce low boost before 3k. BTW, this turbo is so small that it can spool up pretty quickly, i think a 2.5k rpm to start your run is not bad at all.
Just a few points i would like to get across.
Chris@Hypertech
Member
I totally get what you are saying, and that is why we are on this forum sharing as much information about our tuning as we can. I can tell you that our tuning is not the same as the other aftermarket tunes available for these cars.
What we learned after over 1,100 dyno pulls is that leaning out the air/fuel ratios increased the exhaust gas temps to unsafe levels, and is susceptible to knock retard. We tested tunes with leaner AFRs. What we found is although more power can be made, the resulting increase in EGTs was not desirable for engine longevity, and the performance was inconsistent.
The EGTs at wide open throttle with our tune are right at 1500, which is around 50 hotter than stock, peak to peak, during a dyno pull. If those AFRs were pig rich, you would see a measurable reduction in EGTs over stock. This just isnt the case with our tune on this engine.
We also tested our tune with no MAF correction, and the engine does make slightly more power. But during multiple dyno pulls, the results were excessive boost, an increase in EGTs, and excessive knock retard, and all with leaner AFRs.
With our tune, boost comes on full at 2800-3000 RPM. We tune the boost cut and load cut limiters to allow for mods, but leave them in place to protect the engine from a mechanical failure that may cause destruction if these limiters are removed. With the air mass calculations correctly measured, these limits can be used just like the factory tuning uses them.
All of the protection strategies that the factory tune uses are still in place. The Hypertech tune accurately models the engine power output which allows the ECU to precisely implement the protection strategies to prevent overboosting, overloading, and overheating the engine and catalyst. We put a lot of time and effort into developing and testing this tune to ensure that it is not out of control. Not all of the aftermarket tunes available for the Mazdaspeed3 do this.
Darth Vader
Member
Once again the real cork becomes the stock puny turbo. It constantly boxes any tune in, (beyond a certain point) forcing the tune to concentrate on not overspinning, not overheating either side, making you buy it dinner before you try to fyck it, rather than what would make best power with this engine. Any serious power production (around 280 wheel+) is going to run smack into this problem, regardless of what tune you use.
- :
- 06 LS MS6
07 BM GT (shell has been struck from the roll)
(rofl)(rofl)(rofl)(rofl)(rofl)(rofl)(rofl)(rofl)(rofl)(rofl)
Darth Vader
Member
Thank you, thank you...I'm here all week.
Anyway, I wonder, Chris, if you investigated the cause of the high EGTs. The high EGTs could also have been caused by unburned fuel afterburning in the DP. This is a cat-killer in the long run and highly dangerous for the turbine side of the little pinner, too, as it sends uncontrolled combustion shock waves at an already stressed component. I've seen this peel back turbine blades like mashed intercoooler fins.
If that is the case, the contention the tune is too rich could hold water, even with high EGTs. Richening the tune would make this worse, not better. Giveaways could be popping from the exhaust, though cats could muffle that pretty effectively.
Waddya think?
Anyway, I wonder, Chris, if you investigated the cause of the high EGTs. The high EGTs could also have been caused by unburned fuel afterburning in the DP. This is a cat-killer in the long run and highly dangerous for the turbine side of the little pinner, too, as it sends uncontrolled combustion shock waves at an already stressed component. I've seen this peel back turbine blades like mashed intercoooler fins.
If that is the case, the contention the tune is too rich could hold water, even with high EGTs. Richening the tune would make this worse, not better. Giveaways could be popping from the exhaust, though cats could muffle that pretty effectively.
Waddya think?
So the richness is what allows for the the extra mods....which then lean it out but at a still safe level...that's why they are doing it maybe and that's why they say more mods are welcome!? If my logic is correct then that was a good marketing move by HT....
I would like to have the option to have the current tune for heavier modded cars that will lean themselves out....or an option to have a slightly leaner tune for the offically supported HT mods.
I want cake with my icecream too...k thx (thumb)
I would like to have the option to have the current tune for heavier modded cars that will lean themselves out....or an option to have a slightly leaner tune for the offically supported HT mods.
I want cake with my icecream too...k thx (thumb)
Darth Vader
Member
The fukt thing is that, even with all my mods, I'm still AFRing in the 10:1 range at high rpm. Even when my stock fuel pump failed, the ECM did everything possible to hit targetted AFRs and, pretty much succeeded, until over 5k, the loss of pressure was too great to overcome and the car started missing really bad. It seems you CAN'T lean this car out with flow mods, if you look at the AFRs. That'd be a first in automotive history, as far as I know.
Darth Vader
Member
Light .22 Phoenix sound pops out of catless cars on wot shifting isn't too unusual. What causes can be, unburnt residual fuel or hydrocarbons making their way into the DP and igniting explosively. Exhaust leaks can also cause this, though, or compressor surge events, rarely. Also, the amount of overlap in the cam timing can affect this as well. I don't know the cam spec #s on the Speed so, I can't comment on that but, given it's a VVT car for the street, I doubt it.
If this is heavy, it can create similar looking damage to the turbine wheel compressor surge damage looks like on the intake side.
If this is heavy, it can create similar looking damage to the turbine wheel compressor surge damage looks like on the intake side.
Chris@Hypertech
Member
Yes, we thoroughly tested the Hypertech tune at different air/fuel ratios to see the affects on EGT's. We tested tunes both richer and leaner than stock.
Simply put, the leaner the AFR, the higher the EGTs.
The only way to get unburned fuel in the exhaust at wide open throttle would be to have a cylinder misfire. You would see an instantaneous drop in EGTs if this were happening.
We measured EGT's in each exhaust port, in the exhaust manifold, as close to the cylinder head as possible. If there were any issues with cylinders misfiring, we would be able to see them instantaneously.
The backfires are probably the result of a combination clutch fuel cut, and tuning the decel cut at redline to reduce the rev hang between shifts.
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Chris@Hypertech
Member
Like Darth said, the ECU is going to target a specific air/fuel ratio, measured by the factory wide band O2 sensor. Wether your car is stock, or has mods, it is going to attempt to maintain the same air/fuel ratio. So it isn't going to be any leaner with the mods, as long as the MAF is reading the airflow correctly.
We tested the tuning leaner, and it increases the exhaust gas temps to unsafe levels. You run the risk of burning valves and pistons at leaner AFR's. We're just not going to offer an option that could damage your engine.
You might be able to get away with a leaner AFR on one of these engines with a bigger turbo, but I don't see us getting into offering tunes for those types of mods, due to emissions laws. The current Hypertech tune for the Mazdaspeed3 and 6 passed the California and federal EPA standards.
Darth Vader
Member
Thanks for the reply. Good to see how that EGT issue was addressed. I'll go back to enjoying this tune now...FMIC coming to deal with the monster heat soak so, I'll be truly fully bolted within a couple weeks. I'll tell how that works out, too.
Thanks Chris..and I appreciate your willing to listen to my rambling....I do like this tune...
Just today in Tampa..the air got a little bit dryer and cheesesausce chrysler the car took off unlike it had before. I can't wait to get my TMIC, Meth and 70 Florida weather.
One more question if you will and without having to be specific, are there any additions to the programmer that may be implemented? (usa)
