Help needed from MSP gurus (charts inside)

[KrayzieFox]

And the R4 software does allow you to input modifications below 4000 RPM. When I open my maps it goes from 500 - 8000 RPM on the y-axis, and -28.5 inHg - 16 psi on the x-axis. You sure you have the window fully maximized?

But even still, you won't be able to do anything with the AFC while the ECU is in closed loop. So even if you do change the values, the ECU will still win.

 

[.mazda.speed.]

I also have that lean spot, Is it something to worry about? To be at full boost and only have that much fuel coming in?

 

[KrayzieFox]

We all have it. It's not good, but there is nothing any of us can do about it without a standalone EMS.

 

[codex]

What is the U Tune you referenced? When I spoke to SplitSecond on the phone, they told me that the AFC will also modify the signal while the ecu is in closed loop. If the AFC is modifying the signal to the ecu from the MAF and o2 sensor, it could trick the ECU into running richer while in closed loop.

 

[KrayzieFox]

What is the U Tune you referenced? When I spoke to SplitSecond on the phone, they told me that the AFC will also modify the signal while the ecu is in closed loop. If the AFC is modifying the signal to the ecu from the MAF and o2 sensor, it could trick the ECU into running richer while in closed loop.

It's what Split Second references as far as tuning instructions.
http://www.splitsec.com/technotes/technotes.html

And closed loop tuning with an AFC is news to me. Keep us updated, I'm sure many of us would like to improve our overall tune if it's possible.

 

[codex]

It's what Split Second references as far as tuning instructions.
http://www.splitsec.com/technotes/technotes.html

And closed loop tuning with an AFC is news to me. Keep us updated, I'm sure many of us would like to improve our overall tune if it's possible.

Im thinking what he was referring to is the ability of the afc to adjust fuel trim at closed loop.

Straight from Split Second's tuning guide document.

What you can control with a programmable calibrator in CLOSED LOOP is the
amount of trimming the ECU has to do. You will enjoy the best drivability when
the fuel trims are minimized throughout the CLOSED LOOP region."

Doesn't adjusting the fuel trim while in closed loop allow for adjusting the AFRs in closed loop?

I just found this
http://www.splitsec.com/technotes/Achieving_Fuel_Enrichment_in_Closed_Loop.pdf

 

[codex]

After reading over http://www.splitsec.com/technotes/Achieving_Fuel_Enrichment_in_Closed_Loop.pdf it seems very likely that they could include the same technique to enrich closed loop mode with the ss afc. I am hoping they included this with the SS AFC, because all the hardware is there for it and would be a shame not to use it to its fullest. Also, thinking of the ss afc hardware, couldn't the software be modified to create a modified 2nd o2 sensor signal to fool the ECU into thinking there is a cat, even if you have removed it (and getting rid of the CEL)?

Please, someone with good knowledge of the AFC chime in.
Thanks

 

[yudkib]

this is getting interesting. sub

 

[KrayzieFox]

After reading over http://www.splitsec.com/technotes/Achieving_Fuel_Enrichment_in_Closed_Loop.pdf it seems very likely that they could include the same technique to enrich closed loop mode with the ss afc. I am hoping they included this with the SS AFC, because all the hardware is there for it and would be a shame not to use it to its fullest. Also, thinking of the ss afc hardware, couldn't the software be modified to create a modified 2nd o2 sensor signal to fool the ECU into thinking there is a cat, even if you have removed it (and getting rid of the CEL)?

Please, someone with good knowledge of the AFC chime in.
Thanks

That article talks about a different product though. It's not the AFC, it's the Enricher. So as mentioned previously, the AFC will not allow you to do anything while the vehicle is in closed loop. However it appears that this Enricher they sell will. Sounds to me like it's a simple voltage clamp, I used one on my turbo P5 to trick the ECU from seeing the extra fuel. But that was with a P5 ECU..

 

[HondaEat-R]

I used my SS-AFC to tune a part of closed loop, and it worked for about 2 days, tops, then it just did what the ECU wanted to do... You can only reliably tune when the sensor you're tuning is clamped, and in open loop.


EDIT: And the support you get from Split Second is hit and miss. Some people know what they're talking about, some are just soldering lab rats it seems. They know the ECU learns around closed loop tuning, yet they suggested I still do it (when I called them).

 

[KrayzieFox]

This thread has me wondering about using a voltage clamp though. I remember when I boosted my auto P5, the only option I had was an O2 sensor voltage clamp and a rising rate fuel pressure regulator. I used a Flyin' Miata clamp and BEGi RRFPR.

And it worked flawlessly! I set the clamp to activate at -2 inHg so as soon as it got even close to boost, the clamp activated and the ECU never pulled the extra fuel that the RRFPR was about to add. I had 10-12 AFRs from -2 inHg all the way through 6 psi. Does that mean the P5 ECU always operated in open loop?

 

[codex]

This thread has me wondering about using a voltage clamp though. I remember when I boosted my auto P5, the only option I had was an O2 sensor voltage clamp and a rising rate fuel pressure regulator. I used a Flyin' Miata clamp and BEGi RRFPR.

And it worked flawlessly! I set the clamp to activate at -2 inHg so as soon as it got even close to boost, the clamp activated and the ECU never pulled the extra fuel that the RRFPR was about to add. I had 10-12 AFRs from -2 inHg all the way through 6 psi. Does that mean the P5 ECU always operated in open loop?

I am interested in learning more about using a BEGi FMU. I used one on my turbo Miata and retained the stock ECU for fuel management. Would using a FMU/RRFPR along with an AFC allow for better tuning?

Also, what about the part that says the AFC can control fuel trim in closed loop, which is also allowing the ECU to run richer in closed loop. Is this what it does?

 

[Captain KRM P5]

I am interested in learning more about using a BEGi FMU. I used one on my turbo Miata and retained the stock ECU for fuel management. Would using a FMU/RRFPR along with an AFC allow for better tuning?

Also, what about the part that says the AFC can control fuel trim in closed loop, which is also allowing the ECU to run richer in closed loop. Is this what it does?

you don't want to use a BEGi fmu on an msp. its been tried and it doesn't work. that and a voltage clamp method are meant for stock protege computers which aren't setup to tune beyond 0 psi. it prevents the ecu from pulling fuel under boost at partial throttle situations on N/A computers. the msp ecu does not have this limitation so you would be addressing nothing by doing this.

having this conversation without a wideband is honestly fruitless. tuning without a wideband is suicide. this is why the AFC has datalogging. guesswork isn't going to cut it.

the AFC does not benefit the car solely based on map values in the unit. Prior to an AFC install, the msp tunes based on mass air readings. After that, you now have an internal MAP sensor by which the AFC will make adjustments from. As well, if you look at how the AFC is wired in, you now have the MAP sensor telling the PCM what is going on rather than the MAF sensor. this is why its an interceptor unit - its intercepting the signal going in and sending one based on pressure values back out. this is why the car drives better, drives smoother and you don't get hesitation. You're tuning in boost based on what boost is actually being run and not whats being drawn into the airbox. this is why the super stock map works well and works the way it does.

This is also why the unit works where MAF based systems just don't. This is also why MAP sensor-less AFCs don't work and only this unit does.

you can use the AFC to command when the car changes loop. this is how n/a guys tune the unit on their setup. this is also how you can tune for larger injectors.

 

[codex]

you can use the AFC to command when the car changes loop.

Can you clarify what this means? We are trying to figure out if the AFC can control fuel in closed loop? Does your statement mean that the AFC controls when the ECU is in closed or open loop? So, when there is boost, the car is running in open loop?

Also, if the AFC does control when the ECU switches from closed to open loop, is there a setting which allows us to modify at what RPM this happens? Or does it occur when pressure is detected on the MAP sensor that is included?

 

[dandan2]

you don't want to use a BEGi fmu on an msp. its been tried and it doesn't work. that and a voltage clamp method are meant for stock protege computers which aren't setup to tune beyond 0 psi. it prevents the ecu from pulling fuel under boost at partial throttle situations on N/A computers. the msp ecu does not have this limitation so you would be addressing nothing by doing this.

having this conversation without a wideband is honestly fruitless. tuning without a wideband is suicide. this is why the AFC has datalogging. guesswork isn't going to cut it.

the AFC does not benefit the car solely based on map values in the unit. Prior to an AFC install, the msp tunes based on mass air readings. After that, you now have an internal MAP sensor by which the AFC will make adjustments from. As well, if you look at how the AFC is wired in, you now have the MAP sensor telling the PCM what is going on rather than the MAF sensor. this is why its an interceptor unit - its intercepting the signal going in and sending one based on pressure values back out. this is why the car drives better, drives smoother and you don't get hesitation. You're tuning in boost based on what boost is actually being run and not whats being drawn into the airbox. this is why the super stock map works well and works the way it does.

This is also why the unit works where MAF based systems just don't. This is also why MAP sensor-less AFCs don't work and only this unit does.

you can use the AFC to command when the car changes loop. this is how n/a guys tune the unit on their setup. this is also how you can tune for larger injectors.

this guy knows his s***, lol. hey ken, i emailed u on ur website and u never said anything back. pm me please

 

[SpeedAdiction20]

Can you clarify what this means? We are trying to figure out if the AFC can control fuel in closed loop? Does your statement mean that the AFC controls when the ECU is in closed or open loop? So, when there is boost, the car is running in open loop?

Also, if the AFC does control when the ECU switches from closed to open loop, is there a setting which allows us to modify at what RPM this happens? Or does it occur when pressure is detected on the MAP sensor that is included?

(sorry this is pretty choppy explanation, it's not easy to do this without showing someone, and after the essays I have been doing for school the last few days my eyes hurt and brain is dead lol)

First of all, thank you ken for the explanation, my head was spinning reading through this thread about what people were talking about, and trying to tune closed loop when, like I said below, at 4krpm, in boost, your in open loop already...at least I know you definitely are with the ssafc unless the settings are wrong for some strange reason.

ok so here it is, I would highly recommend you to read this thread, and look through the pages, if you take your time to look through all the pages and just skim for stuff with good information, you will know all you need to know about this thing...http://www.msprotege.com/forum/showthread.php?t=123620555

ok, now like ken said the SSAFC can tune the car in open loop only but this does not mean that you can't tune your car when it is not in boost.. when your car is in boost, it is in open loop, when it is not (at least without changing it with the ssafc) it is in closed loop, like said before in closed loop, the ecu takes the readings from the primary O2 sensor..

what I THINK you are asking, is to be able to tune the car below 4k rpm.. which I don't know why anyone thinks it's in closed loop, unless there is something I strange that I don't know about, but below 4k rpm, you can do 2 things,:
1.) you can force your car to go into open loop through the SSAFC (which I will explain in a minute) when it is out of boost, which like ken said, is what people do to tune for larger fuel injectors
2.) or you can just set the settings from you ssafc to start to edit (for lack of better word now) the fuel cells, or fuel injector pulses (add or take fuel from stock ecu map basically) when your car goes into boost, which is what most people do and have the ssafc for..

The ssafc comes with the stock supermap which is set to/or should be set to "over pressure" of 1.1psi in the "Options" then "Engine Output Settings" then just go to, first, the over pressure scroll down tab change the over pressure to over pressure OR over rpm, it is good to do this encase your wga breaks or something and that way the ssafc will take over when it goes above the 5.5k rpm (which the stock ssafc is set to)

but really don't worry about that over pressure/rpm settings right now, just go to the "Over Pressure" text box that says 1.1psi, change that to 0 or .5 or whatever you want the ssafc to take over the ecu fuel levels.. it is set to 1.1 because below that the air fuel ratios at such a low boost doesn't really matter too much.. but some people and myself like to set it a little lower so that the car switches over from closed loop to open loop quickly and can alter the afrs slightly faster (it may not do anything at all, but it's personal preference and in my experience I like it to switch over sooner so that I can try to get the afrs down faster while building boost)

sorry for the long, round about explanation, I'm just trying to not leave out stuff that might help with the understanding of the ssafc and how it works.

-bottom line is the ssafc stock supermap comes preset of over pressure at 1.1 so once you hit 1.1psi in boost, the car switches from closed loop to open loop and the ssafc takes over and adjusts the fuel.

oh and yes, get a wideband.. you won't regret it, and you won't be able to tune without it anyways, or you'll have to pay someone to dyno your car every time you want to alter the map anyways

um.. I think I missed some things but I'll leave this for now

 

[codex]

Ok some good information, thank you. Its good to know that the SSAFC causes the ECU to enter open loop at only 1 psi. I'm assuming the stock ECU does not have this ability, because even at 8psi the ECU was still operating in closed loop and fluctuating around 15+ AFR. So, to recap, this does what I hoped it would, it increases the fuel mixture before 4k RPM, since the stock ECU was incredibly lean for the amount of boost I'm seeing before 4k rpm.

I'm very curious though, how does the SS AFC cause the ECU to enter open loop? It is only modifying the signal from the MAF and o2. Does it send a signal which causes the ECU to run in open loop from those sensors?

 

[SpeedAdiction20]

go to the "over pressure" on the engine output settings on the options menu, but the over pressure is what has it in the open loop.. I wasn't sure if the stock ecu actually does operate in boost up to 4k rpm but I wouldn't doubt it, I didn't have a wideband before I had the ssafc in, would be interesting to set it back to stock ecu and see what the afrs are.. but anyways..

to your question, the ssafc makes it go into open loop just by... well other than the normal over pressure settings.. I dono I just assume it alters the signal somehow.. lol I just realized I meant to post this 2 hours ago.. sorry make that 5 hours ago now lol, ill post finally lol

 

[yudkib]

i can tell when the open loop on the stock ECU kicks in, its right where my car suddenly slows down from the fuel dump. it pulls well from about 3000 (after turbo spools) to about 3700 RPM and then feels like it bogged down hardcore.

 

[codex]

the ssafc makes it go into open loop just by... well other than the normal over pressure settings.. I dono I just assume it alters the signal somehow.

I was hoping to get a response from someone who could say for certain that the SS AFC is causing the ECU to enter open loop sooner than the stock ECU would and maybe a simple explanation as to how it does this.