wrapped my ms3 around a pole :-/
- Thread starter zim
- Start date
kickniteasy
Member
dude....did you just get broken up with or something? Calm down man, if you want to act like a 17 year old douche go join a honda forum.
wonder why you got banned from, You know...
oaklandopen
Member
i think a 6 wheeled vehicle might work even better
happy and angry
Member
I question your grasp of the English language and your reading comprehension if this is what you think I have been suggesting to him. Perhaps you should go read my lengthier posts in this thread? Maybe you already have but you are having some difficulty understanding the ideas being presented by words strung together in a commonly used organizational construct of English known as "sentences." Would you like some help figuring out what is apparently very confusing for you?
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Couldn't agree more. I don't get it either.
I've tried to explain to my friends that FWD is only good for a few things:
1. making sure that when people lose control of their car, they barrel head-on into their "target" (its like a throwing-knife for goodness sake)
2. no leg-room is lost to the prop-shaft tunnel
3. fewer parts on the bill-of-materials, but the same or more profit
4. less frictional loss of power through the system
But for anyone serious about performance, it just doesn't make sense.
I'm still really happy with my MS3, but when screwing around, I've definately had a few moments where I wished the car would actually rotate...
of course that is a bit easier when your rear summer tires are low on tread in the middle of winter...
sorry, I couldn't resist.
I'm glad no one got hurt and that your insurance company will take care of ya.
happy and angry
Member
This is true of any vehicle under heavy braking. This tendency is also a very, very good thing.
If you want to compare drivetrain layouts, be fair about it. FWD will never be the fastest around the track, and mid-corner attitude adjustments are impossible to do with throttle. If you enter a corner too hot you're going to plow way off your line. If you give it too much gas mid-corner you're going to start to understeer. Fine, all well and good, but we do not do most of our driving on a track, and evaluating the advantages of a drivetrain layout by those metrics is dumb.
On roads, spinning is bad. It's dangerous for you, dangerous for other drivers. It leads to more rollovers, it makes it more likely that you will strike something sideways where crumple zones are almost non-existent, and it gives you much less control over your vehicle. The predictability of understeer is good in traffic situations. You'll drift
All cars behave fairly similarly, regardless of drivetrain layout, when you're not on throttle. You're in a corner and you stomp on the brakes, guess what, you just spun your car. You're driving in a straight line and you hammer on the brakes, guess what, you're plowing in a straight line with very little ability to steer. When you have "lost control of your car" as you put it, you have lost grip, and throttle inputs aren't going to do anything for you anyway, so drivetrain layout is effectively irrelevant save minor differences in weight distribution (which will make you more likely to spin).
I think a lot of people have this image in their head of losing control on the road and then counter-steering and throttling out of a spin and driving away just fine. This isn't how things tend to work. If you have lost control, you have lost control. You may slide enough to bleed off speed enough to regain control before you hit something, you may not. Traffic, road conditions, and how much space there is available to you may not allow it. You are less likely to find yourself in a position to regain control if you are sideways or spinning than you would be if you were already oriented nose first in the direction of your slide.
FWD is definitely slower on a track, but it's definitely more predictable and controllable (and safer) on the road.
Not always.
A few years ago I was watching something on SPEED about a Honda Challenge race out in California. They interviewed an S2000 driver and he was saying how FWD cars are just toys and shouldn't even be allowed on the track because they aren't real racecars. Where did he qualify? I don't remember for sure, but it was either 2nd or 3rd. Who did he qualify behind? A FWD Civic. Who won the race? The FWD Civic.
And if you watch the SPEED World Challenge Series- the Touring car specifically, the FWD Mazda6 and Acura TL has done quite well against the RWD BMWs and AWD Audis. In fact, they have come away with quite a few race victories and I believe even a season championship or two or three......
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Well, I don't think my comment was unfair, but maybe you're referring to FWD-bashing in general.
I agree with all of your logic its pretty well thought out and bares a lot of truth.
I think wed both agree that 99% of the time 99% of all drivers on the road arent asking their cars to do anything that puts their cars or to 100% of its handling or braking capabilities, though probably to 100% of their technical driving training (which is nothing, actually). So yes, we are all the best drivers in the world 99% of the time.
So, yes, a lot of people of an image in their head of losing control and then counter-steering and getting away just fine because, lets face it, 99% of the time theyre at speeds where it isnt an issue and they can visualize something they know. When they encounter that 1% moment of oh s***, FWD cars will likely keep them behind the crumple zones when that vision no longer matches reality of the situation theyve just stumbled upon.
Where I dont agree with you is that for those of us that have spent the money to race on the track and attend BMW CCA driving schools and actually experience that 1% (which it sounds like you definitely have), we have learned not to trust that image in our heads and that quite honestly, most of us dont drive cars well at the limit until weve had practice, just like baseball or football or anything else. Unfortunately, getting training for being a better driver for that less than 1% moment of time comes at about $100 per track hour or $30 for about 3 whole minutes of autocross (sorry, 2 minutes 45 seconds for those of you that are really good at it). It also comes at the price of getting the privelage to drive a car with decent tires, handling, brakes, and a power steering pump that can actually keep up with user input (sad to say Ive found out that Hyundai Sonata steering pumps cannot keep up with correcting fishtailing very quickly).
My point is this, if youre out of control and now drifting and your goal is to get enough traction back to turn and brake at least a little bit to save your butt from hitting an obstacle, it just isnt going to happen as easily in an FWD as an RWD car. I wont even mention AWD because quite honestly I dont understand the completely bizarre magic-like behaviour that exists with AWD cars, though thanks to adjuatable F/R bias they dont actually all behave the same anyway and I dont have experience in any.
For me, with FWD vs. RWD on the track, which is the same as that at the limit moment that 99% of all drivers experience maybe a couple times a year, I simply believe that people with some training have a better chance of saving it with a front-engine RWD than with a FWD. FWD is doing double duty with too much weight in front and tires needed for driving, most of the braking, and turning. RWD has an inherent advantage (except for rear-engines) and not only does it make for better performance on track as you said, it helps an educated driver recover faster.
Ive gone off track many times, but Ive never looped it and I know when to go off straight instead of trying to save it.
I wont be able to save my butt 9/10, but Ive already saved my FWD MS3 in the snow from hitting a curb 3X this winter by using the e-brake when the thing simply wouldnt stop plowing and was able to get it straight and start moving somewhere other than straight forward helplessly ( can stop 10 feet behind a target if I move to its side, but if I barrel into it I dont get that option. PERIOD).
I now know that Im not as good a driver as I thought I was, but I also feel much safer in a RWD car than a FWD car when that out of control moment happens.
Are my odds of missing an obstacle better for me in a RWD? I think the answer is yes.
Are the odds of me hitting that obstacle sideways better in a RWD and getting injured even more greatly had I not tried to evade? Yes.
So I cant argue with you it would be better for anyone to hit head-on, but I think that it is easier to understand what will happen in a RWD car with user input than it is with a FWD car.
happy and angry
Member
If you were to take two cars which were identical in every way save driveline layout (we're talking brakes, chasis, same power, same suspension, identical weight and weight distribution, everything) driven by the same driver around a track, the FWD car would lose. This is in large part because the front wheels have one fewer demand on their available grip, so you can realistically do things like be on throttle and steer without washing out the front end.
Most racing series that include mixed drivetrain regulations have rules in place to ensure balanced performance like HP limits or compensation weight based on performance. I don't know if SPEED WCS does this or not.
I'll amend my statement, because it really comes down to actually driving it: the FWD platform does not have as much potential on a track.
Most racing series that include mixed drivetrain regulations have rules in place to ensure balanced performance like HP limits or compensation weight based on performance. I don't know if SPEED WCS does this or not.
I'll amend my statement, because it really comes down to actually driving it: the FWD platform does not have as much potential on a track.
happy and angry
Member
We shouldn't be driving cars at the limit on the road. The observable differences between a FWD car, a RWD car, and an AWD car on the road, in traffic, are virtually nill. Handling characteristics of these drivetrains at the limit, as seen in controlled circumstances on a race track, do not translate well to driving on public roads. The restrictions, limitations, and benefits of each drivetrain as seen on a track are not particularly relevant for day to day driving. This is something racing, track days, and regular driving shows you.
If you are so out of shape on the road that you're sideways, drivetrain no longer really plays a part in getting grip back. The only thing drivetrain does is put power to specific wheels, and when you're sideways with the nose acting like a pivot, getting on the gas is more likely to make you keep rotating in the direction you're already sliding, taking you further way from control.
In situations with limited, but still some available, grip, there are things you can do with a RWD car or AWD car you can't do with a FWD car. You can understeer through a corner really easily in snow and ice no matter the drivetrain layout, but if you're going slow enough you can often adjust your orientation and bleed off speed by intentionally getting a bit sideways and make the corner (at low speeds). You can do it on throttle in a RWD or AWD vehicle, need to use a bit of e-brake in a FWD car. But when you cross that line from a little bit of control to lost control, it doesn't matter how many wheels put down power or where they put it down. You're screwed.
Oh yeah, they have it. And if you win a race, you get "rewarded" by getting to carry extra weight at the next race just to make sure no one team maintains much of an advantage.
happy and angry
Member
Mine, or his? Whatchu talkin' 'bout, Willis?
His. The "everything else being constant..." variable was implied in your statement comparing the virtues of FWD on the track.
unsubbing from this bulls*** thread.
I get called out for making real world observations an hour before happy and angry makes his "take two identical cars except for driveline" comment- which is a total dream world scenario anyway. Point is that when do you ever see a chassis that is configurable for either FWD, RWD, and AWD? Never. Maybe we can throw in some frictionless bearings in there too just for good measure. My point was that in real world conditions, FWD can be as fast, if not faster than RWD on the same track at the same time.
I get called out for making real world observations an hour before happy and angry makes his "take two identical cars except for driveline" comment- which is a total dream world scenario anyway. Point is that when do you ever see a chassis that is configurable for either FWD, RWD, and AWD? Never. Maybe we can throw in some frictionless bearings in there too just for good measure. My point was that in real world conditions, FWD can be as fast, if not faster than RWD on the same track at the same time.
Don't let the innanets upset you so much. You're right in that his hypothetical is a dream scenario and yours is more realistic (I can't even think of a single car that offers the option of FWD or RWD, the drivetrain being the only diff). I was just pointing out that apparently the intent of his post was missed.
