weekend checklist..

[mrlilguy157]

1230 is when I woke up, and ya I'm a college kiddo. Had a bunch of people over last night since I haven't been here.

To those who are waiting on data - I am installing windows on my imac so I can use the dynojet software. Look for something around 7 or 8 pm central time

 

[udontknowjack]

Its 2pm. You must be a teenager!!!!!!!!!!! I cant force myself to sleep past 10.

lol....same here....cant never sleep past 7am

 

[ms3guy22]

army did the same thing to me.

 

[numbnuts22715]

go gogogogogo post them results

 

[mrlilguy157]

:-D go go gadget fuel pumps!

Let me eat my freaking dinner. haha

I have more data to get together. I may post some tonight and some tomorrow night. I know you guys are anxious. I'm trying to get together as much clear and vivid data as possible. Right now all I have is the dyno charts ready, and I'm working on lots and lots and lots of text write up.

 

[mrlilguy157]

alrighty, the long awaited update (2 days).

i got to tulsa and put the car on jack stands pretty quickly, and went ahead and handled all of my mod installs. the new trz motor mount is excellent (delrin bushing), and the turboXS racepipe fit perfectly. kevin (a friend from school who's 'rents live in tulsa) helped out, and without him, the meth injection install wouldn't have turned out so great, nor would the test pipe install - that was definately a 2 man job.

on to the real fun: we went out friday night and the car sounded and felt WONDERFUL behind the wheel. between palerider's pump (heheheheh), the intake, boost controller, test pipe, and new motor mount, the car was truly a new machine. we went out on some back roads for some butt dyno runs, the car was definitely feeling significantly faster, even without the meth injection (i'll explain in a bit). soon we were down in mexico and met up with a friend who has one of the fastest srt4's around. very quick machine, and his 4th gear was dominating. he's at least 330whp or so, at 2900lbs with him in it.... full boltons, biggest fmic i've ever seen, 3" dump tube, custom tune, intake, you name it. he was pushing close to 22psi on the td04.

next morning was dyno time. loaded up the car with misc tools for parts swapping (intake, pump, etc) and went up to VDP for a good time.

I got strapped in at 3pm and was there until 520 or so. great shop, great guys, great rates, I couldn't have asked for anything better! they had a dynojet dyno using the winpep7 software. I was excited because this was the exact machine I dyno'd on back in dallas, stock car put down 245/270 in 4th gear. at 19psi a few months later with the ATP boost cut killer module:

264/332 at 4250rpm, because fuel cut and spark blow out came into play. this is what that stuff looks like on a dyno:

so, as stated, kev and I got on the dyno and went to work. we started out at stock boost levels, stock airbox, no methanol injection, and the modified hiflow pump, and worked our way to fully modified with the pump upgrade and higher boost (20psi falling to about 16-17psi in 3rd gear), and then swapped pumps at the 17th pull to be at fully modified at pull 17, then back down to stock boost levels nearing the 28 or 29th pull.

the following charts give you an idea of the results. there were about 30 pulls on the dyno, varying in 3rd gear, 4th gear, and 5th gear at the end for kicks, just to see what would throw down. as I already posted, the dyno was reading extremely low. I was very frustrated (kevin can vouge for this, i'm sure I snapped at him a few times, sorry buuuuuddayyyy! (second) ) You've seen the charts at stock and 18psi, and look what I put down with a real intake (short ram intake, with a cone filter) and the test pipe, as well as the water/meth injection and pump upgrade. i've compiled a list of dyno graphs, showing very consistant data between runs that were with the same mods, yet different fuel pumps, one stock and one modified.

some of the graphs i threw out because of sputter or methanol injection, the meth injection yeilded no gains, we actually lost a few ponies in being too rich. everynow and then i would throw on the there was no way to tune in the timing that we wanted to get back with the colder burn (H20 evaporation and methanol acting as a fuel to raise octane). do recall that we're on stock ecu, no other management other than a JoeP manual boost controller (still love it). so, in turn, don't go invest in methanol injection without a better way to tune the ECU, whether it be a xede, accessport, or standback unit. the ONLY reason i bought the meth injection and installed it at this point is because 1: i'm impatient, and 2: I paid $160 for a brand new devilsown kit shipped, including the progressive controller.

onto the graphs: look at the numbers of the run files and the title of the graphs to see what mods are what at what time. I COULDN'T care less about the numbers, being that the peak numbers at the given point in time with the different mods are pretty much the same (with 10points of eachother), but what I am interested in, as should you guys, is the a/f ratio curves, after all, these dyno's were done to see how the ECU and pump(s) react together with different supporting mods. you can see the leaner midrange with all of the stock pump graphs, vs the the little bit richer midrange. Look at the power/torque curves too, they show more power at any given time, other than peak. the curves are more full and round, resulting in more torque, or 'throw you back in your comfy highbolstered mazdaspeed 3/6 seat' feeling. also more hp, but mainly torque. its nice to see this stuff on paper.

blue lines are always hiflow pump, the red lines are always stocker (other than iced intercooler graphs)

testpipe:

Short ram intake and testpipe:

Short ram intake, testpipe and 18psi in 3rd gear (falls to 16psi):

Short ram intake, testpipe and 19psi in 3rd gear (falls to 16psi):

Short ram intake, testpipe, 19psi, and iced intercooler:

Best A/F Line:

Best Numbers/Worst Numbers:

also, as we all know, the main reason for the fuel pump upgrade is allowing to flow more power at any given point with supporting mods, and further eliminating fuel cut based on substantial pressure drop from the stock pump. I dyno'd on Randy's (palerider here at mazdas247) PG pump upgrade, and used my core as a stocker, for a quick exchange on the dyno (less than 10 minutes). driving away from the dyno, i was on a stock pump (randy's pump goes out tomorrow morning, he'll have it tuesday afternoon, sleeping with it and his wife on tuesday night, and hopefully installed on wednesday). on my 90mile trek back to stillwater from tulsa, I 'got on it' a few times, and felt the LACK of power with all of my new goodies in the mid to upper range. it sucks. I called randy right afterwards laughing at him, telling him I understand his pain while he doesnt have a hiflow pump.

i hope these dyno graphs are somewhat helpful to you guys. I'll have more data tomorrow evening hopefully, if my schedule isn't too swamped. enjoy reading this stuff guys. any questions, please direct them to my PM box and I'll get back to you later on in the evening. I have to go and meet with my apartment manager now...

 

[Flogbox]

I just want to keep it short with the points below of how i understood the data. So my apologies if i come across blunt:

* stock pump dyno for 18psi & 19psi doesn't look right and show almost no power increase over stock boost. 18psi has a woeful power curve at 3000rpm which is much worse than just stock boost and a test pipe. The 19psi power curve looks almost worse than the test pip and stock boost.

* stock boost and test pipe give almost the same result as adding an SRI, upping boost to 19spi

* upgraded pump graphs show zero benefit above 4500rpm. Everyone raves how it revs all the way to 6500rpm? Your stock pump performed the same up top.

* upgraded pump in some graphs show power dropping off earlier than the stock pumps.

* Last graph of best/worst runs above 4500rpm show improvement over stock. However none of the other 4 graphs show this same pattern. Is the pump inconsistent?

* Loosh said he gained 6mph gain by adding the pump and 1psi. Awesome. This data does not reflect a 6mph gain over the stock pump.(nailbyt)

Dadas, i'd like to hear your comments on these results? I feel with correct stock pump runs (see my boost comment above) they would almost reflect your exact same results.

 

[palerider]

This info is not necessarily what I found to be the case with my pump up top. I made power past 6000. I wont argue this point. It was a reality.

Of course my ecu was not controling my pump, if at all, due to the installation issues..... but it was there. Confusing really..... but nothing I say should be considered "hard data"... my pump was put together wrong and it was all butt dyno.

Also based on the benefit of icing the intercooler.... I would have to say that heatsoak was well at play for most of these runs. Some of these numbers are just atrocious.... I dont care how "low" the dyno was reading. I almost think there were too many swaps to the equation. Was the ecu reset after every swap?

I am looking forward to my results. My car will go on the dyno this week as well. These numbers are inconsistent, as far as dynos in general go. But I remain optimistic because of what Ive already experienced myself first hand....

that being seemingly better pull in boost, and a longer powerband. I just got inconsistency down low, and that godawful cut in the 2000-3000 range. Im not going to throw my entire experience out because of it. It is possible, and I have wondered however, if the butt dyno I refer to had more to do with experiencing such crap from 2000-3000, before boost would "kick in" and then "the pull" Id feel, "felt stronger", becuase of the stuttering I was experiencing before that.

We'll see..... jurys still out.

 

[palerider]

Were the iced intercooler runs done in 3rd or 4th.

 

[Mid_Life_Crisis]

I don't see any mention of the one test most of us were waiting for: as stock as possible compared to swapping just the pump. Most of us expected that the more radical the mods, the greater the effect the pump swap would have. The burning question was what would it do to a stock (or nearly so) setup?
I question doing this kind of testing with a "learning" ECU. What you get on the dyno immediately after swapping parts should not be the same as what you get after driving around for a day with the mods in place. How much of a difference it makes, I don't know, but it just doesn't feel right. It seems like the more radical the mods, the more effect the learning curve should have.
I thank you for the incredible amount of effort and energy that went into performing all this testing and sharing the data with us, I just wonder how useful some of it is going to be.

 

[mrlilguy157]

I just want to keep it short with the points below of how i understood the data. So my apologies if i come across blunt:

* stock pump dyno for 18psi & 19psi doesn't look right and show almost no power increase over stock boost. 18psi has a woeful power curve at 3000rpm which is much worse than just stock boost and a test pipe. The 19psi power curve looks almost worse than the test pip and stock boost.

* stock boost and test pipe give almost the same result as adding an SRI, upping boost to 19spi

* upgraded pump graphs show zero benefit above 4500rpm. Everyone raves how it revs all the way to 6500rpm? Your stock pump performed the same up top.

* upgraded pump in some graphs show power dropping off earlier than the stock pumps.

* Last graph of best/worst runs above 4500rpm show improvement over stock. However none of the other 4 graphs show this same pattern. Is the pump inconsistent?

* Loosh said he gained 6mph gain by adding the pump and 1psi. Awesome. This data does not reflect a 6mph gain over the stock pump.(nailbyt)

Dadas, i'd like to hear your comments on these results? I feel with correct stock pump runs (see my boost comment above) they would almost reflect your exact same results.

Sad to say, all of your comments are valid. Unfortunately, with the heavier load on the car being strapped directly to the dyno, the 5th gear run which I did, and most of the 4th gear runs as well, resulted in sputtering because of spark blow out.

The pump is consistant, it feels excellent behind the wheel. Dynoing in 3rd gear sucks, its almost stupid, but I did what I could with the conditions that I had. The reason that power is not to be had when you up the boost is because being in 3rd gear, you still get dramatic boost drop off, as compared to 5th and 6th when the boost level that you're set at is actually holding until about 6k or so.

I was very upset with the way the dyno was acting, because, as stated, it was reading extremely low. I'm puzzled at how I was putting down 240-260whp on this dyno with all of these mods, yet on the dynojet back home I made 263whp and 332wtq in 4th gear at just 18psi. that being said, its perfectly apparent to say that the dyno was reading low.

I compared the most comparable graphs, with each being in the same gear and the sampling starting about 250rpms within eachother.

If you're looking for dramatic POWER increases, you're looking at the wrong thing in THESE graphs. You're not going to gain 30-40whp over stock in 3rd gear, between a low reading dyno, the extra load, and those to adding up to boost drop off in the top end.

This info is not necessarily what I found to be the case with my pump up top. I made power past 6000. I wont argue this point. It was a reality.

Of course my ecu was not controling my pump, if at all, due to the installation issues..... but it was there. Confusing really..... but nothing I say should be considered "hard data"... my pump was put together wrong and it was all butt dyno.

Also based on the benefit of icing the intercooler.... I would have to say that heatsoak was well at play for most of these runs. Some of these numbers are just atrocious.... I dont care how "low" the dyno was reading. I almost think there were too many swaps to the equation. Was the ecu reset after every swap?

I am looking forward to my results. My car will go on the dyno this week as well. These numbers are inconsistent, as far as dynos in general go. But I remain optimistic because of what Ive already experienced myself first hand....

that being seemingly better pull in boost, and a longer powerband. I just got inconsistency down low, and that godawful cut in the 2000-3000 range. Im not going to throw my entire experience out because of it. It is possible, and I have wondered however, if the butt dyno I refer to had more to do with experiencing such crap from 2000-3000, before boost would "kick in" and then "the pull" Id feel, "felt stronger", becuase of the stuttering I was experiencing before that.

We'll see..... jurys still out.

I'll be excited to see how your car reacts. I'd definately have fresh plugs on the dyno. Any dip you see in the graph was a stutter, such as spark blow out. I redid the spring mod during all of the runs and started to see better results near the end, making dynoing conditions much better.

Were the iced intercooler runs done in 3rd or 4th.

Iced was done in 4th as stated on the graph.

I don't see any mention of the one test most of us were waiting for: as stock as possible compared to swapping just the pump. Most of us expected that the more radical the mods, the greater the effect the pump swap would have. The burning question was what would it do to a stock (or nearly so) setup?
I question doing this kind of testing with a "learning" ECU. What you get on the dyno immediately after swapping parts should not be the same as what you get after driving around for a day with the mods in place. How much of a difference it makes, I don't know, but it just doesn't feel right. It seems like the more radical the mods, the more effect the learning curve should have.
I thank you for the incredible amount of effort and energy that went into performing all this testing and sharing the data with us, I just wonder how useful some of it is going to be.

I wonder the same thing, and I did at the dyno too. I walked away from the dyno frustrated for a number of reasons.

1: Dyno was reading low IMHO.
2: I was getting stutter/spark blow out and needed new plugs but couldn't get a hold of the ones I needed. Special order.
3: Dynoing in 3rd gear was next to awful and inconsistant. My intentions were to dyno in 4th all day, but after getting the initial results that I did, I couldnt afford it, the car was running terrible.

Its amazing how much the extra load being strapped down to a dyno adds. The car was ripping the night before, and then when I drove back home on the stock pump, the car felt empty and weak.

Youre concern about the learning ECU also plays into this as well. Adding and removing stuff on the dyno can help, but you're not going to see the best benefits from it all as its getting swapped in and out as the ECU is trying to calibrate the tune for the best conditions with the given goodies or mods. I made about 29 pulls or so. In dallas, if I rented by the hour, thats $120 an hour, or almost $300, because we were there for about 2hrs 20minutes. At VDP, I paid $150 for the 2hours. Now, if I did everything over an expanded amount of time, 3 pulls costs me $75 in dallas with a/f or $40 at VDP with a/f. Either way, its dramatically more money, which maybe I should invest for this stuff.

I obviously could not get to stock stock stock because of the test pipe being on the car. The only consistencies which are valid are the a/f curves, looking at the stock curves you see the same midrange dip going LEAN with the stock pump, yet with the new pump in, the car has a pretty nice and smooth a/f line throughout, which I WAS happy about.

My comments and true feelings about all of this:

Laloosh is rubbing off on me. The dyno means nothing. There are too many variables into play, resulting in goofy or inconsistencies. I suppose I need to hit the track next weekend in Dallas, it opened up a few days ago. I cannot replicate how the car felt friday night, on the dyno, it just isn't possible, the extra load won't allow it. I get NO sputtering with the pump on the streets, and the car does nothing but "hauls balls".

If you're stock, don't buy the pump. Better breathing goodies need to be had before stepping up to the pump. At least an intake. a downpipe/testpipe wouldn't hurt either though. On the streets, I ran the upgraded pump STOCK and the car truly did feel better. With the mods, EVEN BETTER! As more money is dumped into these cars with the pump, the car is going to love it even more. Remember, the primary goal of the pump is to keep pressure up and eliminate a form and fashion of fuel cut, as well as open up HEADROOM for more fueling. But, with the extra flow with the pump, more power can be had within the midrange, because there is more fuel to play with in the middle.

See if you (anyone) can interpret this: Looking at the graph of projected hp flow posted where I cannot mention (mods please PM me and I'll edit this if I'm crossing the line) more fuel is available at any given time with the new pump. The stock pump flows as best that it can between 2800-4k, and you get all the power you can from the K04. With more fuel available on the upgraded pump between 2800-4k, then more power can be had right in there. The stock and the upgraded pump both flow more than enough fuel needed in the top end, but can it keep up to the fuel pressures needed??? Thats where you get fuel cut, or anywhere in between there. Fuel cut results because every drop of fuel is being utilized when it has to be, and there is not enough headroom to keep pressures up. Does that make since?


I have a few other charts which I'll try to post if I can get them together later today. Right now its physics time (no, not relating directly to this car... ) I really cant afford to browse the forums this morning, but I will address all PM's and comments that need to be addressed this afternoon.

 

[driver311]

HERE IS MY OPINION ON THE DYNO. MY CAR PULLED BADASS NUMBERS IN THE SUMMER AND WEAKASS NUMBERS IN THE WINTER. CAR JUST DOESNT LIKE TO MAKE POWER IN COLD WEATHER. plain and simple. Ive got it to run good but not the same as summer.

 

[jville]

so the meth injection yeilded no benifits. This makes me very discouraged.(nuts)

 

[laloosh]

people wont really see anything if your doing this on a car that doesnt sputter and run out of fuel to begin with. like i said before, my car sputtered and felt like it was missing ever 200rpm before the pump upgrade, and so did drivers. The pump solved that

 

[JumpingJackson]

You have to tune for meth injection to get the benefits from it. He was running rich as hell. He had no way to adjust his AFR to lean it out after adding the meth injection..

I have the same methkit arriving today and am going to get tuned/dyno'd within a week or 2 on my MS6.

lilguy did hook your meth controller to the MAF or the MAP sensor?

Mods:
corksport downpipe, custom 3" catback
ETS 3.25" TMIC
Turbosmart dualport BOV (100% recirc)
CP-E CAI, Standback 2.0
1 step colder NGK sparkplugs / spring mod
dashhawk
will have devils own progessive meth kit + labonte motorsports IFS-10 injection failsafe installed within the next day or 2.

I think the pump turned out fairly well in any case. The weakness of the stock CDFP isnt in higher RPMS, its in the low RPMS which you can clearly see an improvement in "area under the curve" and his AFR's. It would be interesting to see the dyno if he didnt have his spark blowout issues.

 

[mrlilguy157]

You have to tune for meth injection to get the benefits from it. He was running rich as hell. He had no way to adjust his AFR to lean it out after adding the meth injection..

I have the same methkit arriving today and am going to get tuned/dyno'd within a week or 2 on my MS6.

lilguy did hook your meth controller to the MAF or the MAP sensor?

Mods:
corksport downpipe, custom 3" catback
ETS 3.25" TMIC
Turbosmart dualport BOV (100% recirc)
CP-E CAI, Standback 2.0
1 step colder NGK sparkplugs / spring mod
dashhawk
will have devils own progessive meth kit + labonte motorsports IFS-10 injection failsafe installed within the next day or 2.

here goes my break from school education! ha.

Lets not try to thread jack with the meth injection stuff, if yall wanna talk that stuff, PM me. But, JumpingJackson, you're completely right. i think if i did just distilled water injection, benefits would have been seen. I did meth injection on various pulls to play with it, and just as you said, rich as hell, which makes complete sense. No biggy. I ran it off of the MAP sensor, but off the MAF would work well too. That just means the progressive controller knobs wouldn't be relating to PSI anymore. (drunk)

I think the pump turned out fairly well in any case. The weakness of the stock CDFP isnt in higher RPMS, its in the low RPMS which you can clearly see an improvement in "area under the curve" and his AFR's. It would be interesting to see the dyno if he didnt have his spark blowout issues.

(thumb)

 

[jville]

I'll be wait for your results JumpingJackson. Meth is the route i am leaning towards but would like to see some results and hear some personal reviews.

 

[Sierra117]

I actually like some of these numbers. People need to take a look at the graph as a whole. I think its the test pipe and short ram at 18psi where I first saw it. Peak power numbers were what, one or two up, but look at the spread across the graph between the high flow pump and the stock pump. It gains gobs of power across the band till fall off. I'm interested in seeing more.

Also, where are you heading to do your dyno's in Dallas? A buddy of mine and I may be heading out to Dynosaur. I know they mostly do Supras/2JZs, but my buddy got his baseline done there (Lexus IS300), and he has since gotten many a mod and wants to see how it has changed. I might head out there to get my car on the rollers before I get the midpipe and downpipe on. I didn't get a base line, but there are damned enough base dynos around here to see what I've gained from the intake and catback. But if you need a hand doing any parts swaps or anything, just shoot me a PM and I can make it anywhere. Looks like I have a pretty dull weekend coming up anyway.

 

[mrlilguy157]

I actually like some of these numbers. People need to take a look at the graph as a whole. I think its the test pipe and short ram at 18psi where I first saw it. Peak power numbers were what, one or two up, but look at the spread across the graph between the high flow pump and the stock pump. It gains gobs of power across the band till fall off. I'm interested in seeing more.

Also, where are you heading to do your dyno's in Dallas? A buddy of mine and I may be heading out to Dynosaur. I know they mostly do Supras/2JZs, but my buddy got his baseline done there (Lexus IS300), and he has since gotten many a mod and wants to see how it has changed. I might head out there to get my car on the rollers before I get the midpipe and downpipe on. I didn't get a base line, but there are damned enough base dynos around here to see what I've gained from the intake and catback. But if you need a hand doing any parts swaps or anything, just shoot me a PM and I can make it anywhere. Looks like I have a pretty dull weekend coming up anyway.

We'll see how I feel later on this week about the dyno stuff. It'd have to be early Saturday morning if anything. Saturday afternoon I've got an appointment with someone else for something big relating to these cars

 

[Sierra117]

We'll see how I feel later on this week about the dyno stuff. It'd have to be early Saturday morning if anything. Saturday afternoon I've got an appointment with someone else for something big relating to these cars

Is that so? I'm trying to think with who, the only names I could really think of around here would be Kan or Crossover...hmmm. Dusty is more of a Supra guy than anything else, and I dunno about Alamo...damnit, now I'm just gonna spend all day trying to figure out who you are talking about, lol! Stupid me and asking questions. Best o 'luck with that, though. Like I said, if you need an extra pair of hands, just shoot me a PM.