Classic Rally - FS RWD

[105E]

Hi All,
not sure if the thread title got your interest but if it did here goes.

On the otherside of the universe (New Zealand) we have a plentiful supply of the FS engine in cars from the Mazda 626 through to the SP20 and an almost identical engine in the Ford equivilent of the same cars.

Engine transplants are a resonably common performance modification (at least in the crowd I hang around with) due to the low cost of imported Japanese engines and the resonable bang for buck they offer. The type of conversions are many, but throwing a toyota 4age or 3sge engine in your old Ford has been done to death here. I have ended up with a Mazda FS engine in my Ford Anglia (40 years old) and the poor old thing gets its usual workout on gravel rally stages around the country. The low end torque of this engine is great and makes it ideal for tight twisty rally stages. We run the engine in a rear wheel drive configeration with twin sidedraft carbs. The engine has virtually no electronics bar the electronic ignition. The rest of the car is Bilstein coil overs, quick rack and 5 link rear suspension.

Now to my point.............the FS engine is all but forgotten in NZ and virtually no one knows anything about making them go faster. I have spent the last few days surfing this forum and are amazed at the info that is available and the level of knowlegde you guys have about a forgotten engine in NZ.

I have a few questions I am hoping you can help with?

1. FS-ZE and FS-DE - What is the difference and how can you tell them apart?
2. What are the weak areas in the motor? (I have ran the same engine for 3 years and rev it to 7500 most events, the last event we had a few over revs to 9000 and still no bang).
3. The engine runs a distributor driven by the exhaust cam, anyone make aftermarket cams for this engine?
4. The engine makes 140whp, is this about average?

I know the whole thing is a bit outside the box but I am looking for more power and I like the engine.

Any help and suggestions would be appreciated.

 

[LordWorm]

1. FS-ZE and FS-DE - What is the difference and how can you tell them apart?

Few things - intake manifold, higher compression and slightly higher redline are the most notable. Nothing that can't be (obviously) done to the FS-DE (plenty already do, a few of the AV's on this forum sell all the bits needed to ZE spec a motor)

2. What are the weak areas in the motor? (I have ran the same engine for 3 years and rev it to 7500 most events, the last event we had a few over revs to 9000 and still no bang).

Rods are the number 1 - they are piss weak and have a poor rod ratio. 7000 rpm is where i take my motor to daily - the ZE runs to 7500. Consider yourself lucky if the motor hasn't blown up at 9 grand though... i've got a build in the works to take the motor there safely, and the things required to do it would spin your head.

Intake side flow is another problem, the intake manifold is pretty lossy.

Short block design (physically short, no room between cylinders) means you are limited in how far you can overbore, and also limited in how far you can push the head (theres not much room).

3. The engine runs a distributor driven by the exhaust cam, anyone make aftermarket cams for this engine?

Yes and no. if its an american spec motor, then you can upgrade to the ZE cams (you can get these from the Japanese spec, or australian or new zealand spec motors) - there are also some custom grind jobs available, from intergral and so forth. Check the AV website. Some people run a set of custom cams designed by my predecessor on this forum which are by far the most agressive cams available - problem is they were a very limited run, and there have been some slight fitment issues (to be expected with fully custom billet cams). I have the specs available and i can talk to the guy who "owns" the specs about releasing them if you want to make your own.

4. The engine makes 140whp, is this about average?

140whp at the wheels has been seen a few times by NA modders - one NA modder took the thing to almost 200whp with ALOT of internal work.

I know the whole thing is a bit outside the box but I am looking for more power and I like the engine.

ditch the carbies, go EFI, get a stand alone management system. These motors love timing - and pin point fuel control with yield good results, as on all motors. Do the usual things (headers, intake, exhaust) then look at bumping up your rod ratio and shoving some nice big fat forgies in there, you should be able to easilly build the motor to hold 8000rpm day in day out.

Thats a start, anyone else feel free to chime in

your car sounds awesome by the way post pics infact, pics or die

 

[105E]

Thanks for the quick reply, I have adjustable cam gears and a very, very mild grind on the cams. I was advised that the hydralic lifters were the limitation for a reground cam and thier ability to take up the reduction in the base circle. I have looked at getting the cams 'built up' to avoid the problem but they would still be guessing at the grind. Any help would be great.

Whilst the twin carbs keep the the engine looking and sounding 'period' I am toying with putting a later model efi motor out of a Japanese SP20 in it. Then I can get to the tuning etc without needing a box of jets and chokes!

I guess I am fishing to see if spending the time and money on the FS is going to be worth it. It sounds like it would be no worse than any other engine?

Thanks again, will post some engine bay photos soon.

 

[LordWorm]

Thanks for the quick reply, I have adjustable cam gears and a very, very mild grind on the cams. I was advised that the hydralic lifters were the limitation for a reground cam and thier ability to take up the reduction in the base circle. I have looked at getting the cams 'built up' to avoid the problem but they would still be guessing at the grind. Any help would be great.

Whilst the twin carbs keep the the engine looking and sounding 'period' I am toying with putting a later model efi motor out of a Japanese SP20 in it. Then I can get to the tuning etc without needing a box of jets and chokes!

I guess I am fishing to see if spending the time and money on the FS is going to be worth it. It sounds like it would be no worse than any other engine?

Thanks again, will post some engine bay photos soon.

how old is your FS? i was unaware there was a HLA setup available for the motor...possibly the old 70s pattern engine..hah.

The more recent FS motors certainly have better flowing heads - but they are still not "great".... I've got a quote on my desk right now for what is required to bring the head up to spec and its pretty damned scary looking.

If you are toying with throwing out your old FS and going for a newer FS - best bet would be to go find a kia sportage... (no seriously....) - because a particular year range (not sure which) sport one of the best piston engines ever designed by mazda... the FE DOHC (also known as the FE3).

These things are rev monsters - tough as nails too - they'll make crap loads of NA power, and will take to boost like nothing else... i've often heard them being compared to the nissan SR20.

other than that, if you are keen on keeping the FS, bring it up to spec with an SP20 head (i'd assume it'll bolt on), some decent cam work, and build the s*** out of the bottom end.

microtech efi and all associated goodies

Ford Anglia's are cool - saw one at the sport compact jamboree last week - powered by a 20B ... it was a beast

 

[niky]

Damn beautiful... and insane!

 

[ogsp5]

Do you have the BDA 1600 or 1800?

 

[105E]

No, nothing as exotic as a BDA. The FE3 Engine sounds interesting, anyone have any details on the year etc Kia they are in?

My engine is from a 1996 Ford Telstar, the TX5i was supposed to be the quick version.

 

[105E]

Does anyone know of a car that came out with the FS engine as a RWD with injection?......If I can get the inlet manifold I am half way to my new setup.

Also any suggestions on a aftermarket turbo and manifold combination?

 

[LordWorm]

Does anyone know of a car that came out with the FS engine as a RWD with injection?......If I can get the inlet manifold I am half way to my new setup.

Also any suggestions on a aftermarket turbo and manifold combination?

just get a FWD efi head to start with...manifolds are done there, lift off your head, drop on the new(er) one, use stocko manifolds and you're sitting pretty.

Turbo - obviously this is the wrong section - but i'm a big fan of the garrett GT30 on the FS... alot of people prefer "spool monsters" with the GT28s, but mathematically at least, the 28 is slightly under sized....

manifold - no idea.

 

[ogsp5]

I spoke to a friend of mine. He suggests that you use the engines out of the MK 1 or 2 cortina. Possible the 1600 with BCS stage 2 cam.As you know these are cross flow push rod heads. Or if you can find a engine out of 1969 to 82 escort. I will send you his webb site and e-mail address so you maybe get more info. He is also a dealer for JEN-VEY and emerald standalones. Happy hunting!!

 

[LordWorm]

I spoke to a friend of mine. He suggests that you use the engines out of the MK 1 or 2 cortina. Possible the 1600 with BCS stage 2 cam.As you know these are cross flow push rod heads. Or if you can find a engine out of 1969 to 82 escort. I will send you his webb site and e-mail address so you maybe get more info. He is also a dealer for JEN-VEY and emerald standalones. Happy hunting!!

Whilst he certainly could go for a total engine transplant, he's already got an FSDE in there - i reckon a head swap to an efi head would be the easiest solution for him in the short term....

i mean, he's already got the transmission, driveline etc sorted.

 

[105E]

Thanks for all your thoughts, the engine is essentially a injected engine with carbs on it. I plan to stay with the engine and change it to EFI etc. Will be using a SP20 engine as they are considerably newer that the one I have. I might start with a standard computer then move to a Link or Motec ECU then work on squeezing some more power through tuning etc.

The question regarding the turbo was this apears to be the easyiest road to 200HP? First step would be to change to electronic everthing then build on that. If the rods are the week point I will look at putting forged ones in. Are they generally a bolt in fit? Last set I put in an engine (not an FS) I had to fiddle around with releaving the block due to the size of the big ends.

Problem with the car at present is POWER and the fact I want more!

I am flogging the car through a rally stage and we could easily handle another 50HP without getting silly. Bigger cams, forged rods and a higher compression seem a resonable start.

Using the hydralic lifters is it possible to run a resonable lift cam?