NA Tech Race to 100whp per 1000cc's

Maybe you and LW are the only ones rich and crazy enough to try it! Just doing it the lazy and cheap way (relatively speaking) is a problem on my income. But, this is very interesting and I'll be watching...
 
Sleepy said:
Maybe you and LW are the only ones rich and crazy enough to try it! Just doing it the lazy and cheap way (relatively speaking) is a problem on my income. But, this is very interesting and I'll be watching...
Click to expand...

I'm not rich
crazy maybe
:P

But everyone should "have a go".....you never know.... it could be more than a year before anyone gets to the magic number, and everyone should go as far as their budget, and silliness allows them :)
 
(cool) Nice work LordWorm...I'm glad you took this idea and made it into reality...Looks like there is some really healthy discussion in this thread already (thumb)

Keep the thread alive guys...How much do you estimate the overall cost would to achieve this goal??? No doubt a lot of engine work would need to be done and some serious EMS tuning but most of all a few loose marbles in the `ol noggin and a lot of patience will separate the winners from the losers...Good Luck to all! :D
 
Antoine said:
(cool) Nice work LordWorm...I'm glad you took this idea and made it into reality...Looks like there is some really healthy discussion in this thread already (thumb)

Keep the thread alive guys...How much do you estimate the overall cost would to achieve this goal??? No doubt a lot of engine work would need to be done and some serious EMS tuning but most of all a few loose marbles in the `ol noggin and a lot of patience will separate the winners from the losers...Good Luck to all! :D
Click to expand...

Cheers man, i'm canvasing some support to "sponsor" the idea - not sure how well that'll go, since no performance parts will be spared on these builds, so offering a performance part as a prize will sort of be wasted!

Cost...well...not sure in USD

but i've been quoted:

$6k for engine rebuild to hold the power
probably about a $1k upgrade to my already insane ignition system
about $2k of head work
plus the cost of custom manifolds, exhaust system, and all the associated SAFTEY parts (brakes, suspension, etc)...so not cheap

But yeah - you're right - the winners and losers will be seperated by a factor of craziness :)

I think the KLZE idea has merit - the KL will support more power out of the box, insane rod ratio means a love of revving, get some strong rods, headwork to support the flow and you'd be half way there.

Other options for the NA noggins to think about:

FE3 - this motor is arguably the best piston engine mazda ever built. Kia have the design pattern now, so you can lift the motor out of some Kia's and have a brand spanking new motor that was mazda designed to hold ballistic power.

the good ol FPDE - the poor cousin of the FSDE - but you only need about 180hp to win the challenge, and piston speed isn't going to bite you in the backside when you start running the RPM you need to run (an FPDE would make 180hp at the wheels on pump gas... FSDE will probably need race gas of some description to pull it off).
 
I took someone for a ride in my 1.8 FP and he said it went harder than his 2.0 FS. Hmmm... That was before the cams... dynoed 127whp hmmm...I wonder...
 
Sleepy said:
I took someone for a ride in my 1.8 FP and he said it went harder than his 2.0 FS. Hmmm... That was before the cams... dynoed 127whp hmmm...I wonder...
Click to expand...

I think the "go harder" part is down to the 1.8L's willingness to rev... the 2L feels quite lathargic until you free it up a lot.

the 2L is a torque monster compared to the 1.8L though, long stroke and short rods give it more outright, suck you into the seat pulling power off the line.

127whp is a fair bit of grunt for a 1.8L ... you're at almost 95kW if your dyno is to be believed - that'd have to be one of the pokiest 1.8L's i know :P
go put it on the strip, tell me what 1/4 mile it runs :)


if you were going to go all out NA, i'd suggest longer rods and high comp pistons, intake manifold and custom header tuned to hit you right between the eyes at about 7k rpm... then wind up the revs to 8k and you'd pretty much have the win in this competition i'd imagine!
 
Nah, I was very skeptical about the dyno figure. But if I did enter I would go back to that dyno again! I will try to get a scan of it tomorrow to show you what I mean.

There are no drag/race tracks here, just beautiful twisty moutain roads notorious for traffic delays due to crashes.
 
Sleepy said:
Nah, I was very skeptical about the dyno figure. But if I did enter I would go back to that dyno again! I will try to get a scan of it tomorrow to show you what I mean.

There are no drag/race tracks here, just beautiful twisty moutain roads notorious for traffic delays due to crashes.
Click to expand...

where abouts are you?

There will be a strip around somewhere - even if its just a 1/8th mile. I can't drive for less than 3 hours without finding some regional drag racing club...
 
scan.webp
 
Didn't they convert the torque? Those look like raw Nm figures.

Any idea what dyno it was? EDIT: never heard of dynamic... see you've got a Unichip... am still trying to get mine to work (sorry, LW, it was the easiest way to go... :D )... guess it's believable... somewhat... pre-chipped, you're at 116 whp, post chip you're at 127 whp? Eek! 11 hp?!? I hope mine ends up that well... currently getting only a 3 whp bump with conservative air-fuel remapping, we're still wiring the ignition.... were you guys able to raise the rev-limiter with the chip, or is the FP really just revvier than my mill? :(

-----

I've gotten (current build, pre-chip) 123whp on the dynojet, 134whp on a Dastek and I should be at about 140+ on a Dynapack.

My runs on each (except the Dastek, which was recently recalibrated to reflect closer-to-Dynojet numbers) have always been quite consistent, even over a difference of months, so there's no accuracy issue... it's merely that you can't often compare between different kinds of dynos.

That's another issue, Lordworm... (not that I'm going to be in the running... my current target is a conservative 140 whp on the dynojet) are you going to insist on Dynojets? Or will you fudge in a conversion factor for different kinds of dynos? Though I guess getting 180-200 whp out of any of these four-bangers, whatever the dyno, will be kind of spectacular.

Do rotaries count as double the displacement? :D
 
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I HAD a unichip, but removed it due to persistent stalling problems at idle when hot( losing the engine, power steering and brake boost during U-turns in traffic is not fun). As for the gain, I heard (unconfirmed rumor) that the tuner turns on every electrical load he can to sap power for the before run and then everything off for the after, to make it look better. Also the factory tune is for 91 RON, while the dyno tune was on 98. That should have helped alot. The peak rpm? Dunno about that, the stock limit is 6,500.

Now running an emanage ultimate, with limit raised to 7,000. Not been on a dyno with it yet.
 
niky said:
That's another issue, Lordworm... (not that I'm going to be in the running... my current target is a conservative 140 whp on the dynojet) are you going to insist on Dynojets? Or will you fudge in a conversion factor for different kinds of dynos? Though I guess getting 180-200 whp out of any of these four-bangers, whatever the dyno, will be kind of spectacular.

Do rotaries count as double the displacement? :D
Click to expand...

I can't insist on specific dynos.

Dynodynamics in shootout 4 would be ideal (best conversion in the market) but they don't have much presence in the US. as you state, 200whp out of a 4 banger all motor is pretty good, no matter what dyno is reading it.

Rotaries don't count for double displacement...its somewhat of a myth.
 
LordWorm said:
Rotaries don't count for double displacement...its somewhat of a myth.
Click to expand...

Exactly...They count as TRIPLE the displacement...:p

Seriously though...I'm not sure about displacement but don't rotaries easily match the power potential of larger piston engines...for example a 13b can match a V or I6...or even a small block v8? I heard the power delivery is quite smooth as well...like a I6 or v8?
 
Antoine said:
Exactly...They count as TRIPLE the displacement...:p

Seriously though...I'm not sure about displacement but don't rotaries easily match the power potential of larger piston engines...for example a 13b can match a V or I6...or even a small block v8? I heard the power delivery is quite smooth as well...like a I6 or v8?
Click to expand...

Essentially, you're right - a 13B (and more so a 20B) should be able to mix it with V8 motors....

The "double displacement" myth comes from the idea that you get 2 "bangs" in a rotary for every 1 "bang" you get in a piston engine - but the engine still only physically displaces 1.3L (or 2L or 2.6L in Antoine's favorite version of the motor), and thus it doesn't "count for double"...its just more effectively using what it has.

off topic: you should all get on youtube and check out Queen Street Racing's 26B BMW drag beast :) 26B as it was meant to be.....fed by 2 big fat monster turbos, easilly generating 2000hp at the wheels ;)
 
Sleepy said:
I HAD a unichip, but removed it due to persistent stalling problems at idle when hot( losing the engine, power steering and brake boost during U-turns in traffic is not fun). As for the gain, I heard (unconfirmed rumor) that the tuner turns on every electrical load he can to sap power for the before run and then everything off for the after, to make it look better. Also the factory tune is for 91 RON, while the dyno tune was on 98. That should have helped alot. The peak rpm? Dunno about that, the stock limit is 6,500.

Now running an emanage ultimate, with limit raised to 7,000. Not been on a dyno with it yet.
Click to expand...

Sorry for continuing the OT, but:

Is this the old Unichip, or the current "universal" one? I'm interested, since I assume you're OBDI, being an Aussie.

My current issue is that they can't get it to idle with ignition timing, yet... I just hope it's not "they can't get it to idle with ignition timing, ever." We're currently tracing it. Ignition is the reason I stayed away from the locally available e-manage blue... a couple of Evo guys and at least one Proty owner have had blown ignition coils from this product... hell if I know why...

About said tuner... I'm glad mine isn't like that. They admit when the gains are just so-so... experienced guys. We were having a laugh when they were talking about some customers who wanted them to do that exact thing just so their numbers would look better... :lol:
 
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Maybe a complete turbo kit would a good prize................lol

A set forged wheel, set of jdm mazdaspeed racing seats, carbon fiber bits, uh.....a vacation or a paid trip to a racing school. well those are a few things that i would want.

but havin a 1 of a kind n/a 250hp protege. will be reward enough.

yeah i thinks i going with the kl. If im gonna be spending this money I may as well be gettin a good amount of power out of it.
 
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MakeMeGoFast said:
Maybe a complete turbo kit would a good prize................lol

A set forged wheel, set of jdm mazdaspeed racing seats, carbon fiber bits, uh.....a vacation or a paid trip to a racing school. well those are a few things that i would want.

but havin a 1 of a kind n/a 250hp protege. will be reward enough.

yeah i thinks i going with the kl. If im gonna be spending this money I may as well be gettin a good amount of power out of it.
Click to expand...

KL is an awesome choice of motor. You'll get the power you need, for not an OVERLY large gain in weight - the car should be an absolute bullet on the quarter mile - not to mention it'll be a bit of a response-monster, what with all that extra displacement.

You're still going to need a fully forged bottom end to make it safe (and buying 6 of everything instead of 4 of everything will make the build a bit more expensive) but you'll end up having a lot more potential than those of us sticking with 4 cylinders.

I suggest you speak to the AV's about some management set up. Microtech basemaps exist for the KLZE in the LT12S ecu. Or you could look at a suitable haltech that supports 6cyl sequential fire.

Individual throttles would be cool on a 6cyl but i don't know how much of daily driver you want...so probably better to look at a tunnel ram intake manifold with either single or twin throttles. I can help you out with the mathematics you'll need for the design....but fabrication will be down to you or your machine shop.

See about finding a place that will build you a decent set of equal length tuned 3-1 headers, with a nice merge at the Y join to go back to a single pipe. You'll be wanting a company that knows their stuff, and fankley custom headers are going to be the only thing that will cut it.

Best of luck :) looks like this is going to be a 6cyl vs 4cyl battle - may the best block win :P
 
had planned on going forged from the beginning just for piece of mind. as far as intake goes. havent really got that far into the thought process. i've seen a few itb'd kl setups, and this probably wont be a daily driver when im done with. more of a weekend screamer.
 
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