The difference is, the ms3 and ms6 are aimed at different markets just like the 3 and 5 series beamers so those aren't good comparisons. The mazda 3 is the successor to the protege so a better comparison would be a mazdaspeed protege and ms3 and not many would disagree the ms3 is an improvement. The RX-8 is supposed to be Mazda's high performance sports car akin to the s2000, 350z, STI, etc. It is in the same position the rx-7 was back in the day. Back then there was the supra, 3000gt, 300zx etc and the rx-7 was more than adequate to compete. The RX-8 just isn't up to the task (yet) imo. I don't hate the car, I'm just a little disappointed by it.
rx-8 vs. MS3
- Thread starter konvex1
- Start date
The difference is, the ms3 and ms6 are aimed at different markets just like the 3 and 5 series beamers so those aren't good comparisons. The mazda 3 is the successor to the protege so a better comparison would be a mazdaspeed protege and ms3 and not many would disagree the ms3 is an improvement. The RX-8 is supposed to be Mazda's high performance sports car akin to the s2000, 350z, STI, etc. It is in the same position the rx-7 was back in the day. Back then there was the supra, 3000gt, 300zx etc and the rx-7 was more than adequate to compete. The RX-8 just isn't up to the task (yet) imo. I don't hate the car, I'm just a little disappointed by it.
then my comparison was perfect you're just missing it. the rx8 is not aimed at the same market as the rx7 was and was not created to fill the void created by the rx7 when it left. it is a totally different car built with a different end goal in mind just like the MS3 and MS6 or the 3 series and 5 series.
no, it's not, and that's the point i was trying to make. they knew that without forced induction, which they couldn't do reliably as was proven by the rx7, those other cars were out of their league so they decided not to try to compete with them but instead build their own, unique, awesome car.
"Mazda built the RX-8 just because they could." These are the words that have always stayed with me. Mazda went ahead and built something they love and not to what the market necessarily needed or in fact was going to bring in large volume. Because of this you must realize there simply is no comparison here. Ya'll can argue till ya' blue in the face. I leave you with this.
Part of a conversation with Noboru Katabuchi, "We built the RX-8 in firm belief that Mazda is the only carmaker capable of building it. The compactness of the rotay engine allowed us to create a car with sports car styling, while providing a generous-size interior. It all comes down to the rotary engine. It size gave us great flexibility in designing this car. So in short, we built the RX-8 because we could."
Part of a conversation with Noboru Katabuchi, "We built the RX-8 in firm belief that Mazda is the only carmaker capable of building it. The compactness of the rotay engine allowed us to create a car with sports car styling, while providing a generous-size interior. It all comes down to the rotary engine. It size gave us great flexibility in designing this car. So in short, we built the RX-8 because we could."
Are you trying to tell me the RX-8 is not aimed at the performance/ enthusiast market? If you are, then you need to put down the crack pipe.
No manufacturer who wants to make a profit builds a production car 'just because'.
FI is not the only way to improve performance on a rotary. 3 rotor cars exist that put out some impressive numbers. Anyway I think it's a little farfetched to conclude Mazda isn't up to the task of building a reliable turbo rotary.
When you label a car a sport coupe and charge almost the same price as the competition, you ARE competing. Somebody in the market for an RX-8 will more than likely cross shop a 350z, g35, or s2000. Even a miata fits into that market segment.
I'd like to see the entire conversation. The rotary has been around for ages and Mazda has been building cars around them for ages, so it seems a little strange he would say something like that. The RX-8 was a big let down for Mazda but they'd never admit it. But at the same, I don't expect them to. The RX-7 was where the rotary got some serious respect, not the RX-8. I think people are buying the RX-8 more for the looks than what's under the hood.
enthusiast? yes. the same clientele of enthusiasts who were shopping for the RX7? no. that level of enthusiast is out shopping the elise and other such cars now.
20Bs are nice. in a production car it hasn't been used without turbos though. from what i've read you can't really get torque out of a rotary without forced induction; fine for race cars, not good for street cars. can they build a reliable, powerful, turbo rotary? yes. can they do it, pass emissions, and get decent gas mileage? not quite as simple
flipstylex
Member
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- Mazdaspeed 3, Cosmic Blue sport
I've read the write up's, and its quite an argument between these two cars.
My opinion is that just drive what you like, it's up to you what you want to do with that car. enough said.
on another note, rotary engine is nice for $24 thousand.
But i wouldn't buy the car, instead i bought a rotary motor half the price
07 suzuki hayabusa, sexier and alot faster ;-)
My opinion is that just drive what you like, it's up to you what you want to do with that car. enough said.
on another note, rotary engine is nice for $24 thousand.
But i wouldn't buy the car, instead i bought a rotary motor half the price
07 suzuki hayabusa, sexier and alot faster ;-)
Rotary_Powered
Member
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- Mazda RX7 '87' & Hyundai Tiburon GT '05'
For those who say the Rotors and S/Cs don't mix you need to check out the Pettit S/C for the RX-8 
Take the Rx-8, make it a 2 door - 2 seater and push them back to make room in the engine bay for the DISI turbo 2.3 and you will have the car you are refering to... in line with the "wild child" motif call it the wc-7/8 in honor of the rx-7/8
We wouldnt then have to argue about rx-8 vs ms3... both parties would agree the wc-8 would kick the shorts out of either (and of the beast which happens to be in the shop still getting the entire wiring harness for the ecu gutted -- frigin wiring harness gremlins...... *sigh*)
Upon it's release, the RX8 was built for the enthusiast/performance market, and general people. They had the 197HP auto. WOmen buy this car for the sexy looks and usable rear seats. a 4 dor sports car. It's not purely an enthusiast car. I test drove an 04 auto when I bought my 04 when it came out. my god that thing was so slow, but my GF would have LOVED IT TO DEATH, and she's not an enthusiast. Reminded me of the Tiburon. Great looking car, all show no go. Then I drove the 6 Speed. NIGHT AND DAY, and I bought it.
Mazda put out the RX8 in MASS form in 2004, and it failed. There were leftover 04 models even at the end of 2005 selling for 9k-10k off msrp. I was on the RX8 boards and people were snagging these fully loaded 32k msrp GT models for 23k. General consumers fear that engine, because of the horrible reliability of the last RX in 1995. It was a great idea, but the bottom line is, the car is failing. It's getting outsold by it's competitors, and the 350Z will destroy it in a straight line.
As for 3 rotor. WAYYY too costly. The car would also never meet emmision standards. Remember, that's part of the RX8's problem. THat engine is capable of more in N/A form, but the gas mileage is already BAD, and it won't meet emissions. a 3 rotor to meet today's standards. We are talking over 40k for the RX8. No one would buy it, and it would get like 10mpg. FI, unreliable on a rotary. They could make it reliable, but it would be a tough sell. Everyone remembers the FD RX7, which to me is one of the greatest sports cars ever built. The problem was it was expensive as hell, and very unreliable. I don't think Mazda wants to turbo that rotary. They would have already.
Just my .02. DOn't have to agree, it's just how I see it.
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Upon it's release, the RX8 was built for the enthusiast/performance market, and general people. They had the 197HP auto. WOmen buy this car for the sexy looks and usable rear seats. a 4 dor sports car. It's not purely an enthusiast car. I test drove an 04 auto when I bought my 04 when it came out. my god that thing was so slow, but my GF would have LOVED IT TO DEATH, and she's not an enthusiast. Reminded me of the Tiburon. Great looking car, all show no go. Then I drove the 6 Speed. NIGHT AND DAY, and I bought it.
Mazda put out the RX8 in MASS form in 2004, and it failed. There were leftover 04 models even at the end of 2005 selling for 9k-10k off msrp. I was on the RX8 boards and people were snagging these fully loaded 32k msrp GT models for 23k. General consumers fear that engine, because of the horrible reliability of the last RX in 1995. It was a great idea, but the bottom line is, the car is failing. It's getting outsold by it's competitors, and the 350Z will destroy it in a straight line.
As for 3 rotor. WAYYY too costly. The car would also never meet emmision standards. Remember, that's part of the RX8's problem. THat engine is capable of more in N/A form, but the gas mileage is already BAD, and it won't meet emissions. a 3 rotor to meet today's standards. We are talking over 40k for the RX8. No one would buy it, and it would get like 10mpg. FI, unreliable on a rotary. They could make it reliable, but it would be a tough sell. Everyone remembers the FD RX7, which to me is one of the greatest sports cars ever built. The problem was it was expensive as hell, and very unreliable. I don't think Mazda wants to turbo that rotary. They would have already.
Just my .02. DOn't have to agree, it's just how I see it.
Well I think we agree on some things esp. on the FD RX-7 being one of the greatest. I'm not sure a turbo rotary would be a tough sell though. If you read the comments from the rx8 community, they're craving more power. I'm willing to bet it'll sell better than you think as long as the price isn't too insane. As for the gas mileage, well if it performs, I believe many would be willing overlook it.
udontknowjack
Member
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- mazda mazdaspeed3
i was pickin between the rx-8 and the ms3.....if they have a mazdaspeed rx-8with turbo...i woulda choose that instead.....but that never happened....so ms3 win and im very happy with my decision....
Fair enough.
I would still love to own an FD, but it's a giant money pit. I did drive one back in the late 90s, and I've never been the same. Like it or not, one word. PURENESS!!!!!!!!!!!!I think a turbo rotary would be a tough sell, because of the price. If the price was right, no doubt, it would sell, but it cannot be cheap, so it will not sell. I'm one of those former rx8 owners that wanted more power. They overrated it. To this day it's rated at 232hp, yet dynos at about 180hp to the wheels. I own an S2000 now as my fun car, and that car has about 10-15 more whp while weighing less. Not to mention I can supercharge it safely and reliably, which is in the future.
Here are the 2 pages of the interview of a 64 page Road & Track supplement published in 2003. It includes RX-8 design dynamics, road tests, chassis technical analysis, in-depth look at the RENESIS, racing history and much more. Enjoy! Yea....it's so strange indeed.
Attachments
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- 2002 BJFW, 2007 BK3P, 1979 SA22C, 2005 BK3P
the same people that shop for mazdaspeed3s are not the same customers that shop for rx-8s, period. sold mazdas for a year and simply can't put the two customers into the same mold. it really comes down to preference.
the rx-8 was never meant to be a continuation of the FD. the FD was a financial disaster, end of story. that was the last thing ford wanted, and before people cry about the dreaded 'f word', the blue oval ultimately calls the shots as to what does and does not go at mazda when it really wants to. the only way mazda was able to convince dearborn to put a rotary car back on the street was to make it very unique (four doors) more reliable (non turbo) and semi-idiot proof (ridiculously complex owners manuals, at least in 2003).
now that said, i do think mazda missed the mark with this car in many respects. a fully loaded rx8 falls into the same price bracket as an STi so it would be hard for personally to take the rx8 over something like that. someone brought up the issue of horsepower being not as claimed. pretty much every mazda of that year got hit by that, but the miata and rx-8 got all the press because those were really the only two cars in the lineup where horsepower mattered. its not like this is an industry first or a major cover-up. horsepower claims are routinely fudged or missreported by vehicle manufacturers, aftermarket performance suppliers, etc etc. however, i agree the car really could have used some more punch from day one or at least some factory support in allowing the customer to pickup some MS parts to do the trick. the car does corner amazingly well, even in stock form.
as for putting something other than a rotary engine in it - what would really be the point? i think part of the reason it has sold the way it has and continues to for some degree is the fact it has a rotary engine in it. the car is coming back for 2009 as a new/refreshed model so whether we all like the car or not it has sold well enough to justify mazda/ford keeping the faith. its not a mystery since 2003 that the car is underpowered, so there has to be something else bringing people into the dealership and signing papers.
i do wish there was a mazdaspeed model or that it was faster. i don't think its ever going to happen as a factory sanctioned model. one, emissions laws and controls simply aren't friendly to making a high powered and reliable rotary. first thing a good number of us rotorheads do on older rx7s is rip off any semblance of emissions controls. they simply run alot better without it and its much easier to make power. two, ford and mazda simply aren't willing to repeat the kind of warranty fiasco they had with the FD. some could disagree with me but turbo rotaries are typically less reliable than n/a rotaries.
this is all just me adding .02 to what has become a very full piggybank. and to stir the pot even more, i've seen a bonestock rx8 run 13.8 at the dragstrip. i've worked on the car and know for a fact its bone stock so i am as mystified as anyone. you'll find, especially as to how these cars/engines are broken in, widely varying results from car to car.
the rx-8 was never meant to be a continuation of the FD. the FD was a financial disaster, end of story. that was the last thing ford wanted, and before people cry about the dreaded 'f word', the blue oval ultimately calls the shots as to what does and does not go at mazda when it really wants to. the only way mazda was able to convince dearborn to put a rotary car back on the street was to make it very unique (four doors) more reliable (non turbo) and semi-idiot proof (ridiculously complex owners manuals, at least in 2003).
now that said, i do think mazda missed the mark with this car in many respects. a fully loaded rx8 falls into the same price bracket as an STi so it would be hard for personally to take the rx8 over something like that. someone brought up the issue of horsepower being not as claimed. pretty much every mazda of that year got hit by that, but the miata and rx-8 got all the press because those were really the only two cars in the lineup where horsepower mattered. its not like this is an industry first or a major cover-up. horsepower claims are routinely fudged or missreported by vehicle manufacturers, aftermarket performance suppliers, etc etc. however, i agree the car really could have used some more punch from day one or at least some factory support in allowing the customer to pickup some MS parts to do the trick. the car does corner amazingly well, even in stock form.
as for putting something other than a rotary engine in it - what would really be the point? i think part of the reason it has sold the way it has and continues to for some degree is the fact it has a rotary engine in it. the car is coming back for 2009 as a new/refreshed model so whether we all like the car or not it has sold well enough to justify mazda/ford keeping the faith. its not a mystery since 2003 that the car is underpowered, so there has to be something else bringing people into the dealership and signing papers.
i do wish there was a mazdaspeed model or that it was faster. i don't think its ever going to happen as a factory sanctioned model. one, emissions laws and controls simply aren't friendly to making a high powered and reliable rotary. first thing a good number of us rotorheads do on older rx7s is rip off any semblance of emissions controls. they simply run alot better without it and its much easier to make power. two, ford and mazda simply aren't willing to repeat the kind of warranty fiasco they had with the FD. some could disagree with me but turbo rotaries are typically less reliable than n/a rotaries.
this is all just me adding .02 to what has become a very full piggybank. and to stir the pot even more, i've seen a bonestock rx8 run 13.8 at the dragstrip. i've worked on the car and know for a fact its bone stock so i am as mystified as anyone. you'll find, especially as to how these cars/engines are broken in, widely varying results from car to car.
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- 2002 BJFW, 2007 BK3P, 1979 SA22C, 2005 BK3P
ok, there are exceptions to every rule mind you 
Sometimes its not only about raw power, but about balance. I think that the RX-8 does a pretty good job at being balanced. Here in America we are so used to seeing horsepower wars that we forget about having a well rounded car. I do believe that the men at Mazda have a little different view of making vehicles. Thats why the Miata has done soo well over the last 2 or so decades. I do own a MS-3 but thats cuz im all about numbers, but when i drove a right hand drive RX-8 Shinka, i could see what all the hype was about, just wasnt the car for me.
Thanks for posting this. I'll see if it's possible to dig up that edition.
