Reply from Mazda Engineer

[boostisgood]

here is an email response from a guy at MAzda. I have not heard from him since saturday, so hopefully he has a MSP and is driving it, as I said to create the hesitation, and will send me a reply soon. it actually starts from the bottom to the top sorry lol


Mark,

Thank you very much for looking into, and wanting to help resolve the issue. I just came in from a night of driving, and once the car was at operating temps, it literally would not go. The engine would rev through the gears, but no power was there. It would actually hold at about 5k RPMs before I had to shift, at certain points. (many have also had this issue with it holding around 5k to 5.5k rpms)

I will try to be more explicit. In my driving tonight, as it is still fresh in my head. After about 20 minutes of driving, some of it in stop and go traffic, the car had a sluggish feel to it, at certain points through the RPM's it would actually jerk somewhat. (the stumble/hesitation) I did not shut off the engine at all. The temp here is around 75 degrees. As i would start on the throttle, it would worsen as I got closer to being floored. As the throttle is on the floor, the car feels like its being held back by rubber bands. I really dont know how else to explain it to you, except for the fact that it happens after the car is ran for 20-30 minutes, in temps above 70 degrees, and anyhwere from 2500 rpms up. Hope that helps.

Thank you for clearing up the "mapping" question also. Callaway always does great work, and I am excited to have Mazda NA jumping into the game, with the Mazdaspeed concepts, like Nismo, and TRD have been brought to the states.

I can try to mount my video camera, along with a wideband O2 sensor this week, and forward all this information to you. I truly believe, and Im not an engineer, but have worked on cars, tuning and otherwise, for the past 12 years, that the issue is due to the car running overly rich. This in open loop, once the car gets hot, and the ECU is trying to over compensate for the heat by dumping fuel.

Again, than you, Mark, for your reply, and for wanting to help in this. Im sorry I cant expain it any way else to you, but it is a constant drivability issue, not just an on again off again issue.

Thank you again,
Craig



Mark Cheavens <MCheaven@mazdausa.com> wrote:
Heat soaking only occurs when the car is shut off. Does this only occur momentarily upon re-start? If so, for how long? Typical heat soaking clears up within 5 minutes of engine running.

As far as the MC engineers "scapping" all of the great work Callaway did on the mapping, this is not true. The DID have to make changes under certain condition to meet driveability and emissions requirements. The basic mapping that Callaway did was complete for all enviornments.

That all being said, If I understand you correctly, you are stating that if I go and drive a car for 20 minutes(ambient temp over 90), let it sit for 15 minutes (maximum heat soak), re-start the car, put the car in second gear and accelerate it will bog down/hesitate at 2500 rpm's?

I still don't think I have the conditions correct as to HOW to drive the car to duplicate....Step by step.

Can you duplicate it? If so, How?

PLEASE note that I am just coming into this and would like to help if possible. I have read recently that others are already aware of this and working on the solution.

Mark
-----Original Message-----
From: craig romanovich [mailto:sportuningguru@yahoo.com]
Sent: Saturday, July 05, 2003 12:10 PM
To: Mark Cheavens
Subject: RE: Petition of Mazdaspeed owners


Mark,

Myself, nor any other signer of that letter, are trying to belittle, or hurt the Mazdaspeed program at all. Now, with that said, I will try to be more clear, as my explanation will not contain thoughts of many others.

As far as being able to duplicate the driving conditions, it must be above 70 degrees, the car must be HEAT SOAKED, and half to full throttle in 2nd gear and up. I have also learned from a gentleman who utilized an ECU scanning unit, that the car, no matter what gear, will goto open loop at about 2500 rpms, when heat soaked.

The rich condition actually happens when the car goes open loop. I understand the need for extra fuel due to boost, and not wanting to run lean, and also to avoid detonation, but from the way the car drives (literally falling on its face) and what others have researched, the car seems to be OVERLY rich.

Also, to my knowledge, Mazdspeed NA/Callaway cars ECU programming was supposedly scrapped by Mazda Japan engineers, who implemented thier own Mapping. If this is true, why did it happen? (If you can explain, I understand contractual agreements and whatnot can bind your discussions)

Lastly, Mr. Davis, the lead guy for Mazda NA production, is aware of this situation also. He was directed to the site the petition was posted on, by a friend of his, who als happens to be an owner of a Mazda dealership. I was unaware of this until after I sent you the petition, but felt it was necessary to make you aware of this also.

Ohh, and my spell checker put the extra ' in protege.
Craig

Mark Cheavens <MCheaven@mazdausa.com> wrote:
Craig,
There are many inconsistencies in you letter.

First of all, if the vehicle is in closed loop it CAN NOT be TOO rich.
Second, if the car is at full throttle OR maximum boost it will NOT be in closed loop.

You are not descriptive enough to tell me HOW to duplicate the concern. I need the exact driving conditions.

Lastly,
Proteg is not spelled with two tilde's

Mark Cheavens

 

[t3ase]

Lastly,
Proteg is not spelled with two tilde's

I love that part.

 

[spazspike]

MSWord is funny like that, it automatically puts the dual tildes on the "e" for whatever the reason.

 

[EVILSRT]

wow...so are they going to fix it or not.....because they make it sound like the car is perfectly fine....This is sad

 

[girth]

VERY interesting stuff Boost -- thanks for posting it.

I'm a little worried though because if I follow your directions I will, more often than not, NOT get hesitation (or much of it at least). But you were in a tough spot because he wanted an explaination of how to recreate it ......

For me, about all I could have told him was "drive the car for 1 week in normal conditions. During this week, be sure to take a few 90 degree turns in 3rd gear and also be sure to go 2/3 to 3/4 throttle from time to time." Those 2 scenarios are where I experience the stumbling most often. At WOT, my car is 'usually' well mannered. My hesitation doesn't seem to depend on tempurature at all either -- it's equally bad in 60 degree weather or 90 weather, from a cold start or heat-soaked. But I realize everyone's scenario seems to be different.......

Personally I've never experienced my car just holding at 5 to 5.5 RPM either (yet anyway). Quite honestly though, if ANYBODY drives the car in ANY manner, I think they'll eventually experience the stumbling -- hopefully he won't give up too soon.

Thanks for your work -

 

[boostisgood]

I was also directing him to the "falling flat" issue at WOT. Also gave the issue for the hesitation. It just comes after the car warms up.

 

[Notorious]

What i want to know is how do you drive the car and not notice it. Just drive the car, for a half hour. YOU WILL NOTICE IT.

 

[girth]

I agree Notorious. That's why it is so amazing to me that Mazda would even release the damn thing when it is so obviously f-ed up! And I'd LOVE to drive the cars of those that say they've never had the hesitation when stock - I do not see how that is possible assuming they know what a normal car should feel like.

 

[DaKidd]

Well maybe they are test driving them in Alaska??? (dunno)

 

[girth]

LOL! Yeah, I don't know. But I doubt it's that -- mine hesitates even when it's upper 50s F here.

 

[DaKidd]

<60 deg.F = solid wood!
>60 deg.F = Flaccid limpers!

 

[JMS'sMSP]

Lastly,
Proteg is not spelled with two tilde's



What is a Tilde's

 

[girth]

Yeah, I didn't get it right away either -- Boost didn't spell it that way either!! Apparently he didn't mean "tilde" though -- he meant that little "accent tick mark" thing (whatever the official name is). Boost should have just replied "Show me 1 tilde in my entire email!!!" THIS ~~~~~ is a tilde!(glare)

Not to mention Mazda is the only company on the planet that spells the word "protege" with 1 tick mark thing.

 

[unwrittenLaw]

Seriously, the Mazda guy just needs to drive it around for a little while and if he doesn't notice the problems, then he is an idiot.

 

[herbieP5]

I dont have a Mazdaspeed but have been following this problem you guys are having. I keep asking my service manager up here in Nova Scotia Canada about the hesitation and stuble issues that mazdaspeed cars are having and he tells me that Mazda is working on a fix for the ECU (this might be old news to you guys), He said once the problem is corrected, They need to get the software out to every dealer in N.A and then post some sort of recall.

I am just repeating what I was told from a pretty stand up guy (he got me MP3 wheels for FREE), so I dont know what to think. I would probably by a MSP if it werent for to engine problems.

 

[oliver2000]

As a engineer...a industrial one I thought I would give you some thoughts on how to help this guy diagnose the issue.

What enginners like is a checklist and a process to duplicate issues, similar to the way IT folks fix issues.

What I suggest is you get someone with a clip board go with you on a drive. Document time of day, temp and the roads you are driving on, describe the type of roads and try a variety of types, city roads, highway etc.

Then take a stop watch and start the drive, document the speeds and rpms etc on the roads and make notes on how the car feels. Make note of when the hestiation kicks in and when boost is achieved.

Hopefully you can get enough driving conditions to pin point the issue. Rather than trying to tell them how to do thier job and what you think is wrong, document the steps and when they duplicate the problem, they can do more detailed work.

I notice the hesitation when trying to get moving on hwy speeds....right now I am not comfortable pulling in front of someone on the hwy as I cannot ensure I get enough speed fast enough.

 

[1sty]

Boost, you may also want to make some extra distictions like 70 degrees ambiant air temp and engine temp to average temp when running for 20 minutes.

 

[yashooa]

Well

I agree Notorious. That's why it is so amazing to me that Mazda would even release the damn thing when it is so obviously f-ed up! And I'd LOVE to drive the cars of those that say they've never had the hesitation when stock - I do not see how that is possible assuming they know what a normal car should feel like.

I live in Texas and it is quite hot here and I have yet to have it.
I didn't have it stock and I don't have it now at 12 PSI.
I did have a very slight pulsing at WOT in 3rd or 4th gear above 4500RPM. Now at 12PSI it does not do it as much. I felt it again the other day while in traffic but it won't pulse over and over again just very rarely. I do agree that the car is too rich just a quick look a freshly cleaned tail pipe will tell you that. It is covered with black soot **** it's like we drive a damn diesel.
Now my car definitely makes more power in cool weather but the pulse has never happened to me in cool weather. I think I just have a much smaller degree of the problem you speak of but it is hardly noticeable. I hope Mazda gets this s*** fixed if not then I will buy Perfy's piggy back unit. I may buy it even if they do. I trust him more than any dealer. Maybe not all flashes are created equal perhaps a few of the cars escaped into the wild with slightly different code on the ECU. I wish we could dump it and go through the code to see what the difference (if any) could possibly be betwixt an occasional pulser like mine and a habitual hesitater like yours.

 

[Notorious]

Lastly,
Proteg is not spelled with two tilde's

You have to be a real special type of jerk to point that out.

 

[SedanMan]

It's not a tilde. It's an "accent agu". I don't know what it is in english. But a quick translation would be: sharp accent.

That is all. Now back to your regularly scheduled program.