Well after reading everything about boosting and how much of a b**** it is on this engine. Ive started weighting out other ideas (other than selling it now), and N/A seems like a decent way to go. Now with the header that im seeing come around, a good intake, exhaust and some BIG cams (not the mazdaspeed cams) what kind of power could we look at? Any ways to make a decent amount of power (with out going into building a full race engine ala speedvision proteges)
Possibilities going N/A
- Thread starter 5speedP5
- Start date
p5sundevil
Member
- :
- 03.5 MidnightBlue p5
darin where were u when we talked about that?
it has already been shown that custom ground cams combined with a good port and polish job on the heads can produce upwards of 33whp gains.
with an intake, exhaust and a good header your talking more like 45-50whp gains, now ur almost in the range of the MSP and ur still NA.
add to that a flywheel, pulley, pistons and an ecu upgrade to tighten the compression a little you are realiztically looking at 55-70whp gains when ur about done with what you can do N/A, and the ecu is important.
Id be plenty happy with 160-165whp N/A meaning like almost 200-210 at the crank, make those wrx's work for thier money when racing.
So a N/A buildup is possible and with what I listed below your talking about 2-3 grand. about the price of a stage 1 or 2 turbo kit without worries about boost problems and no waiting for boost.
hell according to corksport if u swap in the almost as weak Jspec cams,pistons and intake manifold they say you should be around the Jspec hp rating.
it has already been shown that custom ground cams combined with a good port and polish job on the heads can produce upwards of 33whp gains.
with an intake, exhaust and a good header your talking more like 45-50whp gains, now ur almost in the range of the MSP and ur still NA.
add to that a flywheel, pulley, pistons and an ecu upgrade to tighten the compression a little you are realiztically looking at 55-70whp gains when ur about done with what you can do N/A, and the ecu is important.
Id be plenty happy with 160-165whp N/A meaning like almost 200-210 at the crank, make those wrx's work for thier money when racing.
So a N/A buildup is possible and with what I listed below your talking about 2-3 grand. about the price of a stage 1 or 2 turbo kit without worries about boost problems and no waiting for boost.
hell according to corksport if u swap in the almost as weak Jspec cams,pistons and intake manifold they say you should be around the Jspec hp rating.
p5sundevil
Member
- :
- 03.5 MidnightBlue p5
here si the thread where twilight, intallshield2 and myself talked about N/A possibilities as well as building N/A to run a low boost turbo setup.
very good info there from those guys.
http://www.protege5.com/vbb230/showthread.php?s=&threadid=28829
very good info there from those guys.
http://www.protege5.com/vbb230/showthread.php?s=&threadid=28829
twilightprotege
Member
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- 2001 323 Astina SP20 (P5)
sundevil you took the words right out of my mouth...urrrr...keyboard
Jethro_TDot
Member
p5sundevil said:
hah 2-3 grand? :bs:
ill give you the money and get these parts for me
p5sundevil said:
BS... There's no way a small motor will get THIRTY HP from re-grinds. You are fooling yourself if you think simply doing re-grinds, Port/Polish, and a small compression bump (even a LARGE bump) will give you SEVETY HP.
I haven't seen full J-Spec MOTORSWAPS show more than about 120whp.
Go find a 150whp Miata, that is Naturally Aspirated. Ask the owner how much he's spent and sacrificed to get there.
p5sundevil
Member
- :
- 03.5 MidnightBlue p5
dude call bs all you want people have dyno'd those numbers, like i said one person found 33whp from custom ground cams and the port and polish.
this is not as impossible as you think man, think about how much some of the parts on ours cars bottleneck power, like the intake manifold, heads, cams, those ridiculous excuses for cats and so on. releasing bottlnecks will release the power they are withholding.
The p5's runnning in the SCCA have their heads bored an extra .2, port and polish, new tubular intake manifold and cams and a couple othewr small things and they dyno at 210whp. that is on stock internals also.
If your such a disbeliever go ahead and not believe me and others, like i care either way, you spend the extra money on a turbo kit and risk a higher boost level and all the extra money that goes with controlling boost properly and havce fun, Ill stay N/A and see exactly what gains I do get over the next yr as I build up my engine.
and remember because one car can or cant do something doesnt mean s*** for other cars, all engines respond differently to different things, some will give u 5-8hp with exhaust inatake and header and other, like the new QR25dett engine saw 12 whp from just an intake and header. all depends on the engine like I said.
this is not as impossible as you think man, think about how much some of the parts on ours cars bottleneck power, like the intake manifold, heads, cams, those ridiculous excuses for cats and so on. releasing bottlnecks will release the power they are withholding.
The p5's runnning in the SCCA have their heads bored an extra .2, port and polish, new tubular intake manifold and cams and a couple othewr small things and they dyno at 210whp. that is on stock internals also.
If your such a disbeliever go ahead and not believe me and others, like i care either way, you spend the extra money on a turbo kit and risk a higher boost level and all the extra money that goes with controlling boost properly and havce fun, Ill stay N/A and see exactly what gains I do get over the next yr as I build up my engine.
and remember because one car can or cant do something doesnt mean s*** for other cars, all engines respond differently to different things, some will give u 5-8hp with exhaust inatake and header and other, like the new QR25dett engine saw 12 whp from just an intake and header. all depends on the engine like I said.
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- 2006 Shadow Blue GLI
What about that touring P5 car that roger Foo drives. That is NA right and produces what 210 hp?
p5sundevil said:
No they didn't. You are implying an otherwise stock Protege saw a THIRTY hp gain from a custom re-grind? That's not gonna happen. I'm a 'show-me' kinda guy. Show me who this 'one person' is, and show me what else was done to his car. Show me the results on a back-to-back dyno?
p5sundevil said:
It's VERY impossible to gain 30whp from a regrind on a 2L motor.
p5sundevil said:
Which P5s? Show me. How to you bore out a head?
p5sundevil said:
I'm a believer of scientific Data. Are you naive enough to think adding 50whp with a turbo is somehow 'harder' on the motor, than adding 50whp NA? Extra money?
Show me a NA 200whp Protege, and I'll show you a guy who spent well over $10,000 on his engine.
p5sundevil said:
All engines respond the same way to physics. I am VERY familiar with the FS series motors. My Probe gained 7 whp from changing the spark plugs once. (shrug). Does that mean Probe Motors are better than Nissans? My motor aslo gained 25hp from switching to a test pipe. Big Farking Deal.
Show me these magical numbers and engines you are spouting about.
2 Stock Proteges....$5000 to spend on power-adders.
1 goes NA = 140whp
1 goes Turbo = 200whp.
It's your call. Pick whatever path you want.
twilightprotege
Member
- :
- 2001 323 Astina SP20 (P5)
gee darin, bit angry there...
ok i'll be your test dummy to keep you happy. my car baselined 103.5hp at the wheels with the few mods i've done. i am getting custom cams ground as we speak. these cams are a fair bit more than the jspec and mazdaspeed cams most ppl have. they will be ready 12 september.
now, i'll be trying my hardest to get them installed the following week, run them in for about 500miles or so, then get a dyno done. i'm guessing i'll be getting somewhere in the vacinity of 15-20whp from the cams....now you'll notice i have STOCK exhaust except for a gutted pre-cat...with a full exhaust i'd be looking 25-30whp from the cams.
now i know the dyno runs wont be back to back because my original dyno run was on 19 July, but because i'm in Australia and we're heading into summer, the weather will be hotter than then, so i'll be loosing out.
but sundevil is right...the key to his claims and mine is tuning!
later
ok i'll be your test dummy to keep you happy. my car baselined 103.5hp at the wheels with the few mods i've done. i am getting custom cams ground as we speak. these cams are a fair bit more than the jspec and mazdaspeed cams most ppl have. they will be ready 12 september.
now, i'll be trying my hardest to get them installed the following week, run them in for about 500miles or so, then get a dyno done. i'm guessing i'll be getting somewhere in the vacinity of 15-20whp from the cams....now you'll notice i have STOCK exhaust except for a gutted pre-cat...with a full exhaust i'd be looking 25-30whp from the cams.
now i know the dyno runs wont be back to back because my original dyno run was on 19 July, but because i'm in Australia and we're heading into summer, the weather will be hotter than then, so i'll be loosing out.
but sundevil is right...the key to his claims and mine is tuning!
later
twilightprotege said:
What makes you think I'm angry? I'm a skeptic - there is a difference. How much are the cams costing? How much is tuning going to cost?
The day before you install the cams, dyno your car.
After the cams, Do the runs on the same dyno, same gear, under the same conditions.
Tune all you like.
twilightprotege
Member
- :
- 2001 323 Astina SP20 (P5)
cams...i have blanks from mitch @ protege5online, and getting them ground to my specs is costing me $250 australian....that's like $165usd....i'm not having my engine tuned at this stage, i was just saying that tuning is the real key to power....
i'm not going to run the car the day before i install the cams because i like my car, value my engine...i'm going to run the cams in for atleast 500miles like i said before i even think of going above 4000rpm.
but i can assure you that i will be in hotter conditions when i run my dyno this time coming up...because like i said, the previous run was the middle of my winter, the next one wont be.
i'm not going to run the car the day before i install the cams because i like my car, value my engine...i'm going to run the cams in for atleast 500miles like i said before i even think of going above 4000rpm.
but i can assure you that i will be in hotter conditions when i run my dyno this time coming up...because like i said, the previous run was the middle of my winter, the next one wont be.
p5sundevil
Member
- :
- 03.5 MidnightBlue p5
ok again u are not reading everything, it was not 30whp just from the regrind, and im not talking about grinding to Jspec specs, I am talking about a little more aggressive that will still keep the power band broad and not push it all the way up. Also inclided in the 33whp gain was a good port and polish job on the heads which does lossen alot of hp on some cars.
why would i show you how to bore a head, i read that that tea did it and had no reason to disbelieve them since the article was in Sportcompactcar and their specs have all been checked by the SCCA. And yes their particular car was 210whp with a redline of 8 grand so it was a 5-7grand engine, but that also enables them to lossen more power in the future still without going forced induction, as race engines should be.
the only reason I believe NA is safer than boost is cause of the basic funtions of a turbo, it forces pressure and heat back into the engine. NA doesnt do this, it actually increase flow and increase the cool air going into the system. yes an intercooler setup helps this but Im talking about those starter systems of 4-5psi that run with an FMIC.
also to make sure you are getting these maximum gains that I am so unrealistically talking about your engine has to be tuned very nicely to make suure you ahve everything running to its full potential, better pistons with a slightly raised compression can help this but that is only a small part of the tuning.
I dont mind if u dont believe me, I was trying to help the person that originally asked the question in the first post to give him an idea of what some people are doing NA. and what is possible even if some dont Think so. skeptic or asshoel its not what u say its how u say it, but im tired and have a headache thats been around for 5 days so I might be an asshole too right now.
why would i show you how to bore a head, i read that that tea did it and had no reason to disbelieve them since the article was in Sportcompactcar and their specs have all been checked by the SCCA. And yes their particular car was 210whp with a redline of 8 grand so it was a 5-7grand engine, but that also enables them to lossen more power in the future still without going forced induction, as race engines should be.
the only reason I believe NA is safer than boost is cause of the basic funtions of a turbo, it forces pressure and heat back into the engine. NA doesnt do this, it actually increase flow and increase the cool air going into the system. yes an intercooler setup helps this but Im talking about those starter systems of 4-5psi that run with an FMIC.
also to make sure you are getting these maximum gains that I am so unrealistically talking about your engine has to be tuned very nicely to make suure you ahve everything running to its full potential, better pistons with a slightly raised compression can help this but that is only a small part of the tuning.
I dont mind if u dont believe me, I was trying to help the person that originally asked the question in the first post to give him an idea of what some people are doing NA. and what is possible even if some dont Think so. skeptic or asshoel its not what u say its how u say it, but im tired and have a headache thats been around for 5 days so I might be an asshole too right now.
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p5sundevil
Member
- :
- 03.5 MidnightBlue p5
ok for those that care I am rereading the article in SCC about roger Foo's p5, ill listwhat they did....
-custom aluminum log style intake manifold
-engine is blueprinted and has enough of the heads and block to bring compression to 13:1(using new forged pistons)
-they didnt align bore the block since it is nice at factory setting, they left stock crank bolts but massaged the crank and webs to ensure oil flow
crossdrilled and slotted holes in crank to ensure enough oil flow at new rpm(redline-9500)
-new oil cooler
-crank fillets are rolled and shot peened for durablity.
-forged rods
-new valves(SS)
-most imprtant part=100's of hours of flow work on the heads, tuning to increase flow and better temps.
-port and polish(.75 inches from set, 1inch from flange)
-custom intake and exhaust system as well as custom cams(big pwr boost here)
-new valvetrain components and well as mazdaspeed lifter buckets which is what increase the rpm limiter.
quote
"It's puting out excess of 225hp @ 7800rpm, the way it's currently set up. But more is coming."
yes it is a 5grand engine but they have done half of what they can to it and are already at 225hp.
I should probably say I only listed engine mods, between suspension and chassis stiffness and all the other race mods needed it was quite expensive, but I dont see anyone doing those mods around here.
-custom aluminum log style intake manifold
-engine is blueprinted and has enough of the heads and block to bring compression to 13:1(using new forged pistons)
-they didnt align bore the block since it is nice at factory setting, they left stock crank bolts but massaged the crank and webs to ensure oil flow
crossdrilled and slotted holes in crank to ensure enough oil flow at new rpm(redline-9500)
-new oil cooler
-crank fillets are rolled and shot peened for durablity.
-forged rods
-new valves(SS)
-most imprtant part=100's of hours of flow work on the heads, tuning to increase flow and better temps.
-port and polish(.75 inches from set, 1inch from flange)
-custom intake and exhaust system as well as custom cams(big pwr boost here)
-new valvetrain components and well as mazdaspeed lifter buckets which is what increase the rpm limiter.
quote
"It's puting out excess of 225hp @ 7800rpm, the way it's currently set up. But more is coming."
yes it is a 5grand engine but they have done half of what they can to it and are already at 225hp.
I should probably say I only listed engine mods, between suspension and chassis stiffness and all the other race mods needed it was quite expensive, but I dont see anyone doing those mods around here.
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twilightprotege
Member
- :
- 2001 323 Astina SP20 (P5)
100's of hours of work on the head, yep i'd beleive that. for sure
there is so so so much power to be gained in the head of a mass produced car like ours....i'll be able to show everyone what a little porting does for the power of my car in late october. and this is only a small port job compaired to what they would have done
there is so so so much power to be gained in the head of a mass produced car like ours....i'll be able to show everyone what a little porting does for the power of my car in late october. and this is only a small port job compaired to what they would have done
