whats inside the ms3 motor??

[Boother]

The parting line is a sure sign thats its a forged part. When the parting line is wide like that its a forged part because the dies that form the part can never touch. The cast part will have the parting line in the same spot but will be skinny because it will either be an overflow or a gate for the material

Exactly what I was going to add.

Forged parts can still break when pushed too hard or if they have a manufacturing flaw.

 

[PeterSellers]

Thank you for adding this info about the forged rods...I am starting to get really sick of people spreading these rumors around about the rods being cast.

 

[GoFast]

this is one the instances i intended this thread for...

http://www.mazdas247.com/forum/showthread.php?t=123704139

 

[Captain KRM P5]

Thank you for adding this info about the forged rods...I am starting to get really sick of people spreading these rumors around about the rods being cast.

i guess the machine shops, engine builders, rod manufacturers who have verified for me and a few other vendors that the rods are not forged are either incompetent or spreading rumors. i guess the casting numbers on the side of the rod aren't an indicator either. i guess the fact that mazda has blatantly mis-stated or lied on thier own corporate website about mazdaspeed parts doesn't matter either. i guess the fact that my protege rod looks identical to that 'forged' part and its not forged at is mere coindence.

but hey, i'm only guessing here

my final guess is this; i would guess that anyone who wants to make real power on these engines wouldn't want to have these particular rods inside of it - regardless of if you think its forged, cast or fisher-price plastic. real speed, real horsepower does not come cheap. lets argue for the moment that the rods are forged. congratulations, you still have weak thin I beams that haven't shown themselves to be any stronger once you start seriously modifying the car. if just thinking that they are "forged" helps restore false confidence in how strong this motor is, then by all means sleep better at night, crank up the boost and go to town.

fact is, nearly everyone with blown motors has had a rich air/fuel ratio, not lean, a safe EGT, not overly hot - a real strong forged rod shouldn't do that. i can see a piston giving out under too much load, or even a crank. facts are facts - its always the rods first. it doesn't matter how the rods are made, it doesn't matter what they are made of. they are not bulletproof, they really aren't even all that strong and shouldn't be relied on when you have people snapping rods even on bone stock cars, on the street for no freak reason whatsoever. granted, this is oversimplifying and there are more variables, but how many times - when you have perfect AFRs, good EGTs and no detonation mind you - should you see a strong well designed forged rod snap and punch through your cylinder block?

so - manufacturing arguments aside - if just knowing in your heart of hearts that these rods are forged is enough to instill supreme confidence, i wish you the best of luck.

 

[Boother]

i guess the machine shops, engine builders, rod manufacturers who have verified for me and a few other vendors that the rods are not forged are either incompetent or spreading rumors. i guess the casting numbers on the side of the rod aren't an indicator either. i guess the fact that mazda has blatantly mis-stated or lied on thier own corporate website about mazdaspeed parts doesn't matter either. i guess the fact that my protege rod looks identical to that 'forged' part and its not forged at is mere coindence.

If you have more pictures showing the parting line and the "casting" numbers, please post them.

Have these sources of yours done any tests on the material or are they just eyeballing the stock rod and assuming?

 

[PeterSellers]

i guess the machine shops, engine builders, rod manufacturers who have verified for me and a few other vendors that the rods are not forged are either incompetent or spreading rumors. i guess the casting numbers on the side of the rod aren't an indicator either. i guess the fact that mazda has blatantly mis-stated or lied on thier own corporate website about mazdaspeed parts doesn't matter either. i guess the fact that my protege rod looks identical to that 'forged' part and its not forged at is mere coindence.

but hey, i'm only guessing here

my final guess is this; i would guess that anyone who wants to make real power on these engines wouldn't want to have these particular rods inside of it - regardless of if you think its forged, cast or fisher-price plastic. real speed, real horsepower does not come cheap. lets argue for the moment that the rods are forged. congratulations, you still have weak thin I beams that haven't shown themselves to be any stronger once you start seriously modifying the car. if just thinking that they are "forged" helps restore false confidence in how strong this motor is, then by all means sleep better at night, crank up the boost and go to town.

fact is, nearly everyone with blown motors has had a rich air/fuel ratio, not lean, a safe EGT, not overly hot - a real strong forged rod shouldn't do that. i can see a piston giving out under too much load, or even a crank. facts are facts - its always the rods first. it doesn't matter how the rods are made, it doesn't matter what they are made of. they are not bulletproof, they really aren't even all that strong and shouldn't be relied on when you have people snapping rods even on bone stock cars, on the street for no freak reason whatsoever. granted, this is oversimplifying and there are more variables, but how many times - when you have perfect AFRs, good EGTs and no detonation mind you - should you see a strong well designed forged rod snap and punch through your cylinder block?

so - manufacturing arguments aside - if just knowing in your heart of hearts that these rods are forged is enough to instill supreme confidence, i wish you the best of luck.

Can you point out where I said that just because these rods were forged, that I thought they would somehow instill "supreme confidence" in the strength of the motor? I've seen the rods, and they are indeed quite thin, but that is irrelevant to the argument at hand. I'm not dumb enough to think that just because a rod is forged, that it is somehow unbreakable.

I also think that you cannot accurately say with any certainty that "nearly everyone with blown motors has had a rich air/fuel ratio, not lean, a safe EGT, not overly hot". You simply do not know that. One of the main reasons why I think our motors are failing is because of our bizarre ecu that likes to adjust fuel delivery and alter A/F ratios widely when temperatures begin to change (at least, and possibly during other scenarios too, who knows). People have gotten the car tuned with a safe A/F ratio, and then found out later through datalogging that they are running a full point or more leaner during cold weather. The real fact is, this ECU is quite complex, and coupled with DI, we have a bit more to learn before we have truly figured out this engine.

 

[ptrautne]

Why do you think numbers on the part will say if its cast or forged (you think they cant forge the numbers)? The easiest way to tell if a part is forged it to look at the parting line of the tool. Compare the parting line of your protege and the MS3, do they look different? The other issue youre going to have is some aftermarket companies consider parts machined from a solid block of material forged but you don't get the strength benefit of a true forged part (aligned grain structure and slight higher hardness if no other heat treatment is done). Also cast parts can be strong as long as you can insure there will be no porosity in critical areas of the design which can be can be very difficult.

i guess the machine shops, engine builders, rod manufacturers who have verified for me and a few other vendors that the rods are not forged are either incompetent or spreading rumors. i guess the casting numbers on the side of the rod aren't an indicator either. i guess the fact that mazda has blatantly mis-stated or lied on thier own corporate website about mazdaspeed parts doesn't matter either. i guess the fact that my protege rod looks identical to that 'forged' part and its not forged at is mere coindence.

but hey, i'm only guessing here

my final guess is this; i would guess that anyone who wants to make real power on these engines wouldn't want to have these particular rods inside of it - regardless of if you think its forged, cast or fisher-price plastic. real speed, real horsepower does not come cheap. lets argue for the moment that the rods are forged. congratulations, you still have weak thin I beams that haven't shown themselves to be any stronger once you start seriously modifying the car. if just thinking that they are "forged" helps restore false confidence in how strong this motor is, then by all means sleep better at night, crank up the boost and go to town.

fact is, nearly everyone with blown motors has had a rich air/fuel ratio, not lean, a safe EGT, not overly hot - a real strong forged rod shouldn't do that. i can see a piston giving out under too much load, or even a crank. facts are facts - its always the rods first. it doesn't matter how the rods are made, it doesn't matter what they are made of. they are not bulletproof, they really aren't even all that strong and shouldn't be relied on when you have people snapping rods even on bone stock cars, on the street for no freak reason whatsoever. granted, this is oversimplifying and there are more variables, but how many times - when you have perfect AFRs, good EGTs and no detonation mind you - should you see a strong well designed forged rod snap and punch through your cylinder block?

so - manufacturing arguments aside - if just knowing in your heart of hearts that these rods are forged is enough to instill supreme confidence, i wish you the best of luck.

 

[Boother]

I also think that you cannot accurately say with any certainty that "nearly everyone with blown motors has had a rich air/fuel ratio, not lean, a safe EGT, not overly hot". You simply do not know that.

Or like the Celica and RSX (or ANY manual car for that matter), with their close gated shifters, a simple mis-shift that overrevs the engine can lead to premature rod failures very easily. How many people have blown their engines? Has anyone even asked if they have ever mis-shifted?

 

[Captain KRM P5]

Or like the Celica and RSX (or ANY manual car for that matter), with their close gated shifters, a simple mis-shift that overrevs the engine can lead to premature rod failures very easily. How many people have blown their engines? Has anyone even asked if they have ever mis-shifted?

mrlilguy mis-shifted from 6th to 2nd on the freeway and threw a rod through the side of his block.

Can you point out where I said that just because these rods were forged, that I thought they would somehow instill "supreme confidence" in the strength of the motor? I've seen the rods, and they are indeed quite thin, but that is irrelevant to the argument at hand. I'm not dumb enough to think that just because a rod is forged, that it is somehow unbreakable.

i wasn't referring solely your remarks, sorry if thats what you thought i was doing

I also think that you cannot accurately say with any certainty that "nearly everyone with blown motors has had a rich air/fuel ratio, not lean, a safe EGT, not overly hot". You simply do not know that. One of the main reasons why I think our motors are failing is because of our bizarre ecu that likes to adjust fuel delivery and alter A/F ratios widely when temperatures begin to change (at least, and possibly during other scenarios too, who knows). People have gotten the car tuned with a safe A/F ratio, and then found out later through datalogging that they are running a full point or more leaner during cold weather. The real fact is, this ECU is quite complex, and coupled with DI, we have a bit more to learn before we have truly figured out this engine.

i simply do know that. its not rocket science that a car runs leaner when it is cold outside. or leaner when you are at different altitudes, or richer when you have hotter coolant temps, etc etc. this by the way has nothing to do with the fact that the engine is direct injection. the ECUs are programmed to run rich from the factory prior to any of us tuning the car because of variations in altitudes, temperatures and other environmental conditions. what the wideband or datalog says on a hot dyno on a summer day should never reflect what it would say on the road in wintertime. ECUs use input from the sensors to make fuel and timing map changes and the correction factors are going to be widely variable from Mazda. again, being direct injection has nothing to do with it and it should not surprise any experience tuner to get different wideband readings or EGTs when you go from one climate to the next. thats part of the reason many people have summer tunes and winter tunes. what you are doing is not only adjusting the map, but how well the correction factors in that ECU adjust on top of that map. its really a misnomer and misconception that there is so much different when it comes to tuning these motors. direct injection has been on the market in german cars for over three years now, and in other cars even longer. there are dozens of companies tuning those cars. the only reason the mazda market isn't getting that support is because frankly, there isn't nearly enough volume in this market to draw those companies in.

we've talked to everyone we are able to who has blown one of these motors. without fail nearly everyone, whether it be an owner or a shop, of them reports that the AFRs were rich under load and the EGTs were normal. this should also dispel the notion - and i have seen numerous people throw this out there - that you can run alot leaner on these motors than on standard injection motors. i tune for 11 or 12 to one on alot of boosted engines and these engines have blown under richer conditions than that. are there people who have probably blown thier motors other ways? i am sure there are. the overwhelming majority i have dealt with has not been outside that grouping.

all "are they or aren't they" arguments aside, the rods are a weak link in this motor when you want to make serious numbers and regardless of how or what they are made of doesn't change the fact that they're inherently weak. good to 350whp? maybe. good past that? i wouldn't bet on it.

 

[PeterSellers]

i simply do know that.

So what you are saying is, you have datalogs of "almost every" motor that has blown, at the exact time that it blew, that shows a rich AFR at the RPM range that the failure occured and with low EGTs? I find that hard to believe.

what the wideband or datalog says on a hot dyno on a summer day should never reflect what it would say on the road in wintertime. ECUs use input from the sensors to make fuel and timing map changes and the correction factors are going to be widely variable from Mazda.

Agreed. However, when a person who claims that his motor blew running only 11:1 AFR, is he basing this number off of a previous reading he took off the dyno, or what? Like you said, the correction factors that the ECU will implement are widely variable from Mazda, so at the time of motor failure, their AFR's likely weren't what they thought they were. Also, when someone throws out an AFR number like that, what point on the curve exactly are they referring to? It's widely known that the CDFP cannot deliver as much fuel in lower RPM's, resulting in higher AFR's right around the time the turbo begins to fully spool. That alone is a potentially dangerous condition for these motors.

all "are they or aren't they" arguments aside, the rods are a weak link in this motor when you want to make serious numbers and regardless of how or what they are made of doesn't change the fact that they're inherently weak.

I'm not trying to argue about whether or not the rods are the weak link or not, as that definitely seems to be the case. All I'm stating is that the rods are forged, and that there is not enough evidence to assume otherwise. That's it. For some reason, that is getting interpreted as "I think these rods can handle 400+whp with no problems". Maybe with a properly tuned car they can, who knows, but it hasn't happened yet (then again, I haven't seen any built DISIs with 400+whp either)

 

[Captain KRM P5]

So what you are saying is, you have datalogs of "almost every" motor that has blown, at the exact time that it blew, that shows a rich AFR at the RPM range that the failure occured and with low EGTs? I find that hard to believe.

i have seen quite a few. what you want to believe/question my credibility or honesty is up to you.

Agreed. However, when a person who claims that his motor blew running only 11:1 AFR, is he basing this number off of a previous reading he took off the dyno, or what? Like you said, the correction factors that the ECU will implement are widely variable from Mazda, so at the time of motor failure, their AFR's likely weren't what they thought they were. Also, when someone throws out an AFR number like that, what point on the curve exactly are they referring to? It's widely known that the CDFP cannot deliver as much fuel in lower RPM's, resulting in higher AFR's right around the time the turbo begins to fully spool. That alone is a potentially dangerous condition for these motors.

i've already asked what the conditions were at the time the motor blew. i cannot say i know of one that blew in the low rpm lean spot - which you will find is not entirely the cause of the fuel pump either. i am not saying that customer x was running 11:1 on the dyno, went out on the street not knowing what they were running for an AFR and then blew the motor. i am saying they knew, at time of failure, what the AFR was and what the operation condition was. i have had a few people with thier eyes on thier widebands/dashhawks/etc see the AFR in real time as the failure occured. you are also misinterpreting what i said about the correction factors and AFRs somewhat. but to summarize, no i am not saying people blew thier motors at point B and knew only what the AFR was at point A. i'm fully aware the kind of sense that wouldn't make.

i disagree that an initial lean spot as the turbo initially spools is detrimental. its quite common to see tuners run a mid 13:1 AFR as you initially pass zero PSI, but only briefly. some people may not consider this truly 'lean' by nature.

(then again, I haven't seen any built DISIs with 400+whp either)

there really are only a half dozen built DISIs out there that i can speak of, mostly in mazdaspeed6s. you will see it, but those people will breaking alot more than motors on the way to that number.

 

[mrlilguy157]

my motor popped without any load whatsoever, about 1350 Fahrenheit EGT's, no boost at all. a mis-shift/over-revving will do that to you.

oh well - forged here I come, thanks ken! The motor will be built an in a mazdaspeed 3 with a spec clutch and big turbo, and some sort of tuning (undecided at the moment)