Turbo Mathematics...(for Kooldino and others)

xelderx

Zoom Zoom Boom X 3
I don't know a damn thing about Forced Induction other than it makes your car faster and the basic functioning of the parts. So this is the thread to clear up all those questions like injector duty cycles, fuel pressure, BOV's, BSFC (whatever the hell that is).

So you guys get out of HiBoost's thread and lets get the freaking calculators out and solve this crap. I want to know what it is, why it is, and how the hell it got to be that way. Word.
 
Damn, where do we start.

We would have to start with how a engine works first. Your engine is nothing more than a large pump. You have a cam(or 2 dpending on the engine), valves, and pistons. As you turn your key, the starter starts the pumping action. The first stroke downward of the piston draws in air thru the opened intake valve that the cam has opened, also at the same time fuel is injected. The next stroke is the upward motion which compresses the air and fuel. At This time, a spark from the Spark Plug ignites this mixture, and the explosion forces the piston downward turning the crank which in turn turns the flywheel, turning the clutch and so on to the wheels. Now the fourth stroke, hence a four stroke motor, the cam has now opened the exhuast valve and the piston pushes the exhuast out into the header, to the exhaust and so on. All this motion is set by the timing, hence the timing belt.

OK, pretty basic, but you get the idea. Now, the more air you put into that mixture will produce a bigger and faster bang, in turn creating more horsepower. This is where forced induction comes in. A turbo FORCES more air into the pump. The turbo has two sections, and for some reason I cannot think of the names right now, but there is an exhaust side and a air side. The exhuast exiting the header hits the (wind) vanes in the turbo turning the a shaft which is connected to another vane which speeds up the motion of air. Let me talk about turbo lag at this point. Did you have a pinwheel when you where a kid? If you did, you will remember that when you first blew onto the pinwheel, it started of slow, then finally sped up. That is essentially how turbo lag works. It takes time for the exhaust to spin the vane, plus the air has to travel thru piping and the intercooler. Now on a supercharger, instead of the exhuast turning the vane, a belt is hooked to the vane. So since the engine is turning the belt that is turning the vane, there is no Lag, BUT, you lose a little low end power because now the engine has to turn one more accesory.

OK, now with all of this air, you need more fuel, or things start to denenate (sp?). You can add more pressure by means of a Auxillary Fuel Pressure Regulator (AFPR) or a bigger fuel pump.
Now, with the engine making more power, the ECU is trying to send more fuel to the injectors. You asked about injector duty cycle. Each injector has its limit. The injector duty cycle is the amount the injector can inject fuel in a certain cycle. If you max out the injector duty cycle of the injector, and you need more fuel, then you have another problem. This is where larger injectors come in.

So now we have enough air, enough fuel, the exhaust is turning the turbines and producing forced air. Now lets look at where the air goes from the turbo. It usually travels thru some piping to an intercooler, which is sort of a radiator, but instead of water, it uses air to cool air, like a condensor. After the intercooler it travels to the throttle body. Usually before the throttle body, there is a BOV or Blow Off Valve. Thsi valve has a spring with a plate set to a certain tension. Whats its purpose. Well, when you got your foot to the floor, and you see the copper up ahead, the first thing you do is get off the throttle. So now you have closed the butterfly in the throttle body, and the air has no where to go. With a blow off valve, if the pressure is high enough for the tension you have set on the spring, then it will push the plate open and blow out the BOV, making a very cool sound.

I have no idea what a BSFC

This is just a basic explanation, if I can go further in detail for you, just ask.
 
melicha8 said:
I have a better idea. Buy maximum boost by Corky Bell and save everyone a novel's worth of typing


Ok, so I wrote half a novel, but the corky bell book is a good book.
 
I understand the physics of a FI motor. I want to know the ends and outs of FI on a Protege 2.0L motor. I've read all the threads and I know the basics. I think guys like Spoolin, Kooldino, perfworks, HiBoost need to get in here and crunch numbers. Talk about Haltech and Microtech tuning. Discuss fuel pressure and fuel injectors. Things that are directly relevant to our cars. I'm sorry you had to type that long intro to FI. Good job on it though. Come on guys. There are major issues and misconceptions about turbos on proteges. Lets work together to get it cleared up.
 
Damn.

Sorry, thought you where looking for the basics of turbocharging.

Would you like for me to talk about Naturally Aspirated cars and their very safe for warranty ECU's and why they do not like boost and that is where a standalone computer comes in to take things over?
 
perfworks said:
where would you like to start?
anyone?:)

Lets start about how BSFC can't be .4-.5.

My friend's GS-R has a Drag3 kit running 6psi with a 12:1 FMU and inline pump.

His dyno was 270whp.. and his stock injectors are 270cc. This makes his BSFC 0.44.

I suppose the Honda head is just that much more effecient than a FS engine? This is the only logical thing I can come up with. The B18C1 can use fuel more effeciently?
 
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Man I love engineering pissing matches. . .let's go! :D

BSFC = brake specific fuel consumption

Basically, for the non-engineers (non-geeks, non-losers, whatever you want to call yourselves), in very loose terms this is a measure of the efficiency of "the burn" and is dependent upon the combustion characteristics of the combustion chamber. So, basically the design of the head and valves and how the fuel mixes and ultimately burns. That's all.
 
I've read all the threads and I know the basics. I think guys like Spoolin, Kooldino, perfworks, HiBoost need to get in here and crunch numbers. Talk about Haltech and Microtech tuning. Discuss fuel pressure and fuel injectors. Things that are directly relevant to our cars
I have not been on here much latley because of the recent move. And I will not be on here for the next week also. But to briefly get on this in simple terms. There are a few ways of managing fuel, timing ect out there.

FMU: The standard FMU setup basically increases fuel pressure when it see's boost thus providing more fuel relative to psi at a given ratio. This is considered by many a bandaide solution for fuel managment....but in reality is an excellent form of fuel managemnt in the scope that it was designed for. In regrads tho the FS motor with a standard t3 its safe to say this limit is 7 psi. The reason for this is because you are not producing an accurate fuel curve to support higher boost on the FS motor.

Standalone Fuel computer: i.e halteh F10
This is a much superior approach to the FMU setup since you can map fuel curves and control injector pulse ect. It will keep the FS motor at a healthy A/F (if tuned properly) at even higher then 7 psi. (Injector Duty Cylcle) In simplified terms is basically the work capacity an injector is at. Foreaxample if you are at an 80% injector duty cycle your injectors are working at 80% of there capabilities. Take note that an injector should never really go over 85% IDC because they can go static....or malfunction in very simplified terms. The down side of these fuel computers are that the only control fuel and not timing. This basically limits you to 8psi of normal operation on 93 octane fuel since you are only addressing one side of the problem. Yes its better than an FMU by far and will provide better throttle responce, power and saftey but it does not address all issues.

Piggy back system:
This is also is a great approach. This computer piggy backs of the stock ecu and "tricks" into doing things like driving bigger injectors and providing accurate fuel curves (not as accurate as a stand alone) but better than an FMU. It also has the abilty ti retard timing via maps across the entire rev range. Its a 2 prongged approach that is very promising and economical. However there are no current systems on the market for our application that do both at this time(Perfworks;) ) There are only piggyback systems that can map fuel (Emanage)but again we are stuck with just 1 solution to a problem.....timing. Thats why we chose not to go the emanage route.

Full Standalone engine managment system.
This is the real deal the whole enchilada.....the funk....you get the point. It no longer has the limitations of the stock ecu and you can control fuel, timing, boost amongst many other things. You can run an engine at its threshold for 100,000 miles safley and never flinch......so whats the down side? Tuning, Price, Installation difficulty and so one. This is why we have had many issues working out the kinks on our stage 4 system. But in the end this is the superior system bar none.

Does this mean that an FMU, piggyback, fuel compter ect suck.....NO:mad: :D They just have more limitations

I hope I made this simplistic enough for everybody to understand......Now I am off to finish moving and probably will not be on here for another week:)
 
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Spoolin,

I agree 100% to your explanation. Thank you, you saved me some time.

That's why we use the F10.

We will be working on mapping the F10 for bigger injectors as an upgrade for the one who wants to run higher boost.

Also right now we are mapping a Haltech E6K to work on the FS motor.
There will be both mapping for stock injectors and bigger ones.
This will be a Stand alone engine management system.

This will include a Boost controller managed by the E6K as well as closed loop for better performance and fuel economy.
 
Ok, well I've seen some pretty good general info in this thread, but I don't think that's what xelderx is after. Although, xelderx, Maximum Boost is a good read if you care to nerd out on it. :-) Corky is most certainly the man.

But anyway, let's get specific somehwere. Starting with BSFC. Beavis gives a pretty good definition, and you saw me in the previous thread stating that lean/rich will effect it, and you saw B_real saying that it wouldn't. Once again, I've proven him wrong on that one, according to the formula that the BSFC calculator uses on http://www.rceng.com/technical.htm

Is there any more discussion on BSFC?
 
HiBoost TS said:
Spoolin,

I agree 100% to your explanation. Thank you, you saved me some time.

That's why we use the F10.

We will be working on mapping the F10 for bigger injectors as an upgrade for the one who wants to run higher boost.

Also right now we are mapping a Haltech E6K to work on the FS motor.
There will be both mapping for stock injectors and bigger ones.
This will be a Stand alone engine management system.

This will include a Boost controller managed by the E6K as well as closed loop for better performance and fuel economy.

Not trying to pick a fight here, but you didn't ever comment on my challenge to your original statement of 70% duty cycle @ redline @ "stock fuel pressure" @ 8psi. I did show in the "1/4 mile" thread on how and why what you stated would cause a lean condition. I'd like to hear your explanation...please back it up with some calculations if possible. thanks.
 
Kooldino said:
Ok, well I've seen some pretty good general info in this thread, but I don't think that's what xelderx is after. Although, xelderx, Maximum Boost is a good read if you care to nerd out on it. :-) Corky is most certainly the man.

But anyway, let's get specific somehwere. Starting with BSFC. Beavis gives a pretty good definition, and you saw me in the previous thread stating that lean/rich will effect it, and you saw B_real saying that it wouldn't. Once again, I've proven him wrong on that one, according to the formula that the BSFC calculator uses on http://www.rceng.com/technical.htm

Is there any more discussion on BSFC?

You brought up a thing about a turbo car running 10:1 will need more fuel than a NA car? Have you ever seen some of the factory cars on a dyno completely stock? They have RICH A/Fs too! Some NA cars from factory run about 10:1 by the time they get to redline. So what is YOUR point? You can tune a turbo car to run 12.5:1 if you wanted to... what is your point.
 
Speaking of which, *koolindo* you never answered how my friend's GS-R can have a 0.44 BSFC. You say ITS NEAR IMPOSSIBLE. So please, explain to me how this happens. Since you're so good at proving me wrong and all. I'd like to know your *professional* opinion on why you say a 0.4 or even a 0.5 is far-fetched on a turbo'd car when in fact, my friend's GS-R is 0.44.
 
b_real45 said:


You brought up a thing about a turbo car running 10:1 will need more fuel than a NA car? Have you ever seen some of the factory cars on a dyno completely stock? They have RICH A/Fs too! Some NA cars from factory run about 10:1 by the time they get to redline. So what is YOUR point? You can tune a turbo car to run 12.5:1 if you wanted to... what is your point.


Ummm, my point was right there...you even quoted it...

"Beavis gives a pretty good definition, and you saw me in the previous thread stating that lean/rich will effect it, and you saw B_real saying that it wouldn't."
 
b_real45 said:
Speaking of which, *koolindo* you never answered how my friend's GS-R can have a 0.44 BSFC.

Ok, here we go again with the screename thing. I realize your "spelling it wrong on purpose", but maybe I'm missing the humor on it or something. Whatever the case, please drop these childish games, it makes you look silly. You don't see me purposely misspelling your s/n at a poor attempt at some kind of "humor". I've been very civil to you despite your obvious immaturity. Grow up.

ANYWAY, If you read the previous thread, you'll see where I said that I didn't know WHY your friend's car was a .44. But i DID go on to prove how our cars range from a .58 to a .61 or worse, which backs up my orignal point that if you think a boosted protege is running a .40 BSFC, you're living in a dream world. That was my point, and I proved it. Is your friend's GS-R is .44, I'm happy for him, really. But it's irrelivant to my argument.

You say ITS NEAR IMPOSSIBLE. So please, explain to me how this happens. Since you're so good at proving me wrong and all.

Actually, you've probably proven yourself wrong better than I ever could. But alas, I've proven why a .4 is near impossible on our stock internals. Why you're friend's car is a .44 I don't know. I'm not an Integra expert. Obviously it's just a more efficient engine.
 
Kooldino = Spoolinmp3

I think they are the same person and they are Shi....ing in their pants because the HIBOOST kit is a whole lot better than theirs.


626
 
Re: Kooldino = Spoolinmp3

626 said:
I think they are the same person and they are Shi....ing in their pants because the HIBOOST kit is a whole lot better than theirs.


626

(lol)


HAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHHAHAHA. That's funny. Yeah, I have 3300 posts, so I'm obviously just some dummy account started by Terry to distract people.

Go search for pics of Spoolinmp3 and I and you'll see different pictures, etc. Then you'll see that Terry is from FL/VA and I'm in NJ...and how people have met us, and...oh, hell, why am I even entertaining this point? YOu're funny!
 

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