Stou Turbo project

[Stou]

The J&S unit look good but I don't like the hole in the block part!!!

Ok, it look like the MSD 'Boost timing master' is out of question.

Now I have 3 options:

1-Use a regular Protege ECU instead of the MP3 ECU. Did this will retard the timing enough?

2-Use the expensive MSD DIS 2. IF the MSD 'Boost timing master' is not good enough, is the DIS 2 will be?

3- Use the J&S unit.... and make a hole in the block. Is it realy need a hole for that mic?

 

[spoolinmp3(2)]

1.If you are tight on funds his is the way to go

2.The best unit out there but expensive


3.Not that bad to install and great tunability.......great safegaurd for not blowing up your motor

hmmm decisions decisions.......

 

[mp3_moran]

I'd say go with the j&s, just have a mechanic install the mic. You can be there nervously pacing back and forth in the waiting room, the mechanic will come through the door, take off his gloves, and tell you the procedure went fine and you'll be able to see your mp3 once they move it to the recovery room. Just make sure you're far enough away that you don't here the drill and bring a friend along for emotional support.

 

[Stou]

I had some new from MSD and neither the DIS 2 or the 'Boost timing master' can do the job on our car. Here's his answer:

'Upon further inspection of the wiring diagrams, we noticed that the coils have integrated transistors. This makes wiring any type of aftermarket ignition impossible. We're looking into producing a system but it probably wouldn't be available until next year sometime.'

So there's no MSD unit that can be used on our car.

The J&S Ultra Safeguard look fine but the unit cost $595 US, that make around $935 canadian. If you add Custom brokerage fee and taxes, it will cost something like $1200 canadian. It's kind of very expensive.

So, if nobody have a less expensive alternative, the only one left is the ECU swaping with a Protege GT. How can I know if it will retard the timing enough???


I also have to consider a new clutch too!

 

[PatProtegeGT]

That's bad STOU, but you know who contact for swapping your ECU

 

[Stou]

I sure do Pat.... Maybe we will try the ECU swap in the next weeks. I'll let you know!

 

[big_ben]

Stou, are you having problem witht the turbo or are you just trying to get the ignition retarded to be safe? I'm thinking about just going with the same piggyback unit as spoolinmp3.

 

[Stou]

I had a small problem. We had a small air leak and because of that I had no boost. But now it's ok.

About the timing it's just to be safe.

The next thing I will need is a clutch. The stock one is realy slipping a lot on boost. Can someone tell me if it will work if I only change the presure plate for one with more presure and keep the original cluth?

 

[BryanPendleton]

What are you doing about the timing issue? I email Spoolin about it and he said the advanced timing isn't good with a turbo. So then I emailed Bell Engineering to get their opinion also and they also said that the advanced timing will put you at high risk for detonation. I'm swaping my ECU with a normal Protege ECU.

Running a reprogrammed "performance" N/A ECU on at turbo car is a VERY bad idea. The safety and integrity of your motor rely on proper tuning. Since most bolt on turbo kits give you very very little tuning control in the first place, you do not want the additonal stress of N/A aggressive fuel maps and ignition maps. For the durability and longevity of your motor you will be better off with stock programming.

Ignition timing and fuel is very important in any application. Alot of people put alot of emphasis on fuel though. They ensure you the more than adequate fuel, which helps keep cylinder temps down, and thus chances of detonation, but dumping fuel will only by you so much room, if your igniton timing is too aggressive. Ignition timing has a profound effect on overall cylinder temperatures and cylinder pressures. When you are running advanced timing you are igniting the mixture before the the piston reaches TDC. This means the mixture starts combusting then get compressed more. Cylinder temps and pressure CLIMB. Which is good for power, but also prone to detonation.

You have to ask yourself what do I have control over. In most bolt-on turbo kits, you simply have a FMU, which is a very poor device for providing fuel, but you might have some control. You can reprogram the ECU, but in the FS motor, you do not have boost dependant control over fuel or ignition maps which is a big disadvantage, but you can still have the fuel maps enrichened and the timing maps run a little more conservative (retarded timing). This will buy you safety, durability, longevity.

 

[BryanPendleton]

We all know the old and wise saying........you get what you pay for. I have first hand experience with this MSD unit and it cost me a motor. It failed to retard the timing because they unit did not process boost, subsequently detonating the motor on my old car and kaaaaaaaaboooooom!

My question is:

How did you confirm that your MSD unit "failed to retard the timing because it did not precess boost". Were you data logging or what? I am not trying to stir up trouble. Thats a pretty bold claim and I just want to know how you came to the conclusion that your MSD did not process boost.

I will agree that the MSD BTM is not the greatest tuning device, but under a budget it is a viable option. I do not have first hand experience with the J&S, but I have heard enough about it from friends, that it seems to be a very good option for bolt-on turbo kits. Its a bit expensive, particularly if you pay for installation.

 

[big_ben]

Very good info! Thanks. But one more question. This turbo is draining my budget. Will it be ok to wait about 4 months before getting a piggyback to control the timing. As long as I only run 5-6psi? I really can't afford the price of the piggyback right now. Will I be safe in the meantime?

 

[Stou]

You can reprogram the ECU, but in the FS motor, you do not have boost dependant control over fuel or ignition maps which is a big disadvantage, but you can still have the fuel maps enrichened and the timing maps run a little more conservative (retarded timing). This will buy you safety, durability, longevity.

Bryan do you mean that we can reprogram the stock ECU to retard the timing?

As you can see in my setup, I don't run an FMU. I have an SDS AIC with 2 extra injectors. I think this unit work fine for providing the fuel.

For the timing adjustement I found another unit, the JAcob Boost Master. Anyone know or have experience with this device?

Like I mention in a previous post, I contact MSD to know if the MSD boost timing master can be installed in our cars and here their answer:

'Upon further inspection of the wiring diagrams, we noticed that the coils have integrated transistors. This makes wiring any type of aftermarket ignition impossible. We're looking into producing a system but it probably wouldn't be available until next year sometime.

So MSD themself don't recommand to use it on our car.

 

[Stou]

You can reprogram the ECU, but in the FS motor, you do not have boost dependant control over fuel or ignition maps which is a big disadvantage, but you can still have the fuel maps enrichened and the timing maps run a little more conservative (retarded timing). This will buy you safety, durability, longevity.

Bryan do you mean that we can reprogram the stock ECU to retard the timing?

As you can see in my setup, I don't run an FMU. I have an SDS AIC with 2 extra injectors. I think this unit work fine for providing the fuel.

For the timing adjustement I found another unit, the JAcob Boost Master. Anyone know or have experience with this device?

Like I mention in a previous post, I contact MSD to know if the MSD boost timing master can be installed in our cars and here their answer:

'Upon further inspection of the wiring diagrams, we noticed that the coils have integrated transistors. This makes wiring any type of aftermarket ignition impossible. We're looking into producing a system but it probably wouldn't be available until next year sometime.

So MSD themself don't recommand to use it on our car.

 

[BryanPendleton]

Bryan do you mean that we can reprogram the stock ECU to retard the timing?

Your OEM ECU have fuel and ignition maps based on MAF sensor readings and TPS readings. Other sensors generally cause fuel or timing corrections to the base maps.

Just like when you send your ECU to Jet or Superchips they advance the ignition timing, and possibly lean the fuel mixture for that extra bit of power, thus why they require high octane afterwards; Jet or Superchips can enrichen the fuel maps or retard the igniton maps. But keep in mind that this is based on MAF sensor and TPS sensor, so your ECU has no idea what boost you are running, infact it does not even know you are boost'n, which is not ideal, because you want the fuel and ignition maps to be dependant on the boost pressure. Unfortunately the only true way to get that is with an aftermarket engine management unit, such as the TECH or Haltech or Motec.

Oh and welcome to the "boosted world". Were you wallet is sure to be sucked dry.

 

[spoolinmp3(2)]

How did you confirm that your MSD unit "failed to retard the timing because it did not precess boost". Were you data logging or what? I am not trying to stir up trouble. Thats a pretty bold claim and I just want to know how you came to the conclusion that your MSD did not process boost.

Why you bustin my balls
Actually I should restate what I said. I stated that the unit failed to process boost. I am actually not sure about this but I am sure that the unit failed to work properly. In part it was my fault because I was running very aggressive timing for fi, and relying on the MSD unit soley as a safegaurd. I was datalogging prevously and found that the unit was not retrding timing accordingly. Subsequently, I made the same mistake twice and blew the motor(piston ring) again confirming via link datalog. So maybe I ended up with a dud but I do not reccommend the unit on my own account.

 

[BryanPendleton]

Why you bustin my balls

I am just curious, I like to have the whole story. I personally think MSD is an excellent performing igntion from my experience, but I also think their durability and reliability could stand some improvement. I lost an MSD unit to a mild battery acid leak about 6-8 monthes ago.

 

[LinuxRacr]

I
The next thing I will need is a clutch. The stock one is realy slipping a lot on boost. Can someone tell me if it will work if I only change the presure plate for one with more presure and keep the original cluth?

If I were you I would get the whole clutch kit from ACT or Clutchmasters. Go the their respective websites, and see what they include.

 

[Stou]

I will probably go for the ACT heavy duty clutch and presure plate. Spoolin put an ACT in is turbo MP3 and he told me that this clutch work well. So I'll go for this one.

 

[Stou]

I ordered the ACT clutch this morning. I'm supposed to get it in 2 weeks! I can't wait!!!

I added some pictures in my photo album:

Turbo photo album

You can see my gauges on the steering column. I'll probably try to do a 2 pods steering column in the next weeks.

 

[NYCZMP3]

....stou are u really happy with the overall package from extreme??...the service the prfessionalism and knowldge....are they what u expected???....i am savin my money now stou....i got about 2500 now and i am almost there...hopefully after the summer...i might just wait for my engine to go out of warrenty...since i have some other plans also.....