Springs and Shocks vs. Coilovers?

[bbrich57]

I figure some of you have tried one or the other, while others have tried both.
From a cost standpoint it seems that going w/Tien basic coilovers (around $900 these days) might have the advantage over buying springs, shocks and camber kits.
It may also offer advantages in simplicity, weight savings and certainly ride height adjustability.
Who has experience or opinions about this subject?
Would the camber kit still be necessary? (My guess it that it would be.)

 

[Rennoc]

i dont think it is, i think that when you put in the coilovers they are actually made in a way that gets around the camber plate being necessary

 

[Solo2Protege]

I guess it depends on a few things
1. Budget
2. Your goals for the car
3. Road conditions in your area
4. Ride comfort

1. Obviously this is a big factor with most of us. While in some cases the cost difference isn't that big, true coilovers are always going to be for the bigger budget. If you just want to lower it to look good and get *some* performance out of it, just a set of springs will do. But if you have any plans to autox or track it or just want better performance, then just springs will not do, springs and shocks/struts if it's the occasional race day or true coilovers if you plan to race more than occasionally.

2. If your just going for a street cruiser, then springs/shocks/struts are your best bet. No moving/adjustable parts, install it and forget it. And 9 times out of 10, this combo has a much softer spring rate for a cush ride.

If you plan to race, then the answer is easy, coilovers.

Also, when mix-matching springs and struts/shocks, the drop measurement will play a role. For example, if you have the MS strut/shocks, but want to use sportlines or even the prokit, the shaft stroke may be comprimised. As the MS springs are listed as less of a drop. So by using the eibachs, the rate is different, as is the drop. So the alternate springs must be a very close match to the kit springs...which pretty much negates the whole idea...

3. Road conditions play a role is some ppls decisions, as true coilovers are much stiffer and you tend to go lower with them, increasing the chance of damage or a chiropractic visit. Since springs/shocks/struts are softer and not usually as low.

4. If you can handle the stiffer setup on a daily basis, it's the most cost effective way to go coilovers. Engineered and matched to work as a kit. While there is the MS spring/strut/shock kit, it's for a specific spring to work best. Others can be used, but it's optimum valving is no longer optimum. Then there's Konis, depending on the valing, you may be limited to rate and height...


I have the TEIN SS coilovers on my 3 and while they (any coilover kit) need more maint. attention (i.e. cleaning, re-adjusting, re-torquing) they are a great setup. I do not have any camber adjustment parts. While the rear is quite negative, i am not affraid of it, it's the toe that needs to be set right. The front does not show much negative camber. (ride height set to 1.7" F | 1.5" R)

The best part about adjustable height coilovers for racing, is the ability to corner weight the car precisely and of course, adjust the dampers for various tracks and surfaces and driving styles.

 

[bbrich57]

WOW!! Huge reply, and a nice write up too. Thanks Solo2Pro!
I may want to try autoX a few times, but not every w/e. I used to do it 20 years ago, but I haven't kept up and things in my life have changed a lot since then. But as an old "racer" (ha-ha) and still a car guy, I still want my fun little rice burning, tail dragger to lose some (unsprung) weight and improve what Mazda gave us to improve on... if ya' knows what I meanz? And what I figured is that by the time you spend $350 on struts, another $300 on shocks, and if you go this way (suddenly it seems a viable alternative,) $500 for the MS spring kit including the rear cam links you're spending $1150 and not losing much/any weight. Where as I've seen the Tiens for $860 before shipping. To me, that's something to think about.
Actually, the MS springs are now rated @ -1.5" F/R which surprises me. I thought they were originally the same as the Racing Beats. 7/8"F-3/4"R,+/-?
But since I'm not building a full fledged race car, ride is also somewhat important. I never minded a harder ride, but afterall, I am getting older and do use the car daily.
Thanks again Solo. Let me know if you have any additional thoughts... please.

edit: Post #300. Woo-Hoo!!!

 

[Solo2Protege]

Well, if you did just 2 autox events a year, you'd be eligible for enrollment in Mazdaspeed Motorsports and get nice discounts on competition parts and stock parts...it's worth it, i've saved many a dollar this way.

I just ordered a set of the TEIN basics for our Mazda6 wagon, $780 shipped from cvrmotorsports.

Also, i made a mistake, my current ride height is set to 1.7" F | 1.1" R. The spring rates are 336# F | 391# R for both the Basic and SS. I use my 3 as a DD as well and i don't find these too stiff at all. I am not that young either Stiff yes, but not harsh. Compared to my Protege with 500# springs and racing dampers...the TEINs are good balance between good street performance and good autox performance.

Oh, didn't know MS changed them...i think when they first released they were listed at 25-30mm, but 1.5" is a nice drop. I don't know the spring rates tho.

 

[bbrich57]

Well, if you did just 2 autox events a year, you'd be eligible for enrollment in Mazdaspeed Motorsports and get nice discounts on competition parts and stock parts...it's worth it, i've saved many a dollar this way.

I just ordered a set of the TEIN basics for our Mazda6 wagon, $780 shipped from cvrmotorsports.

Also, i made a mistake, my current ride height is set to 1.7" F | 1.1" R. The spring rates are 336# F | 391# R for both the Basic and SS. I use my 3 as a DD as well and i don't find these too stiff at all. I am not that young either Stiff yes, but not harsh. Compared to my Protege with 500# springs and racing dampers...the TEINs are good balance between good street performance and good autox performance.

Oh, didn't know MS changed them...i think when they first released they were listed at 25-30mm, but 1.5" is a nice drop. I don't know the spring rates tho.

I'm not sure they did either, but somewhere in the back of my mind I thought they were originally much less of a drop. I remember thinking, "Are these guys crazy? Charging that much, and including the camber arms for that little of a change on geometry?" I could just as easily be wrong though. I wasn't looking for that much of a drop anyway. As you say, 1.5" certainly be enough (maybe too much) for me.
"Stiff, yes, but not that young either," huh? 'Sounds like a conundrum to me, Solo. (rlaugh)
That first part sounds interesting to me. That's a cool idea!! I could do two a year... especially in the cooler weather (in Texas.) 'Can't stand standing out all day in the heat/sunshine (100-105*) in the middle of summer 'round here no more.
Do they have to be SCCA sanctioned to be eligable? Do I have to put sponsorship decals all over my car?

 

[Solo2Protege]

"Stiff, yes, but not that young either," huh? 'Sounds like a conundrum to me, Solo. (rlaugh)

hehehe, hey! thats out of context!!!!

That first part sounds interesting to me. That's a cool idea!! I could do two a year... especially in the cooler weather (in Texas.) 'Can't stand standing out all day in the heat/sunshine (100-105*) in the middle of summer 'round here no more.
Do they have to be SCCA sanctioned to be eligable? Do I have to put sponsorship decals all over my car?

Ya, summer here is like that too...dosen't make street tires very happy either, But i like racing more than i hate the heat

They do not need to be SCCA sanctioned, but the results must show your name and car, etc. Even drag slips are eligible, as long as it meets their criteria. (www.mazdaspeedmotorsports.com)

Nope, don't have to add any decals, but they are required if you place in the top 3 at a national event and want to claim your contingency money (first)

 

[bbrich57]

hehehe, hey! thats out of context!!!!

'Course it is. How else can I make fun of it? That's just how my sense of humor works.

Ya, summer here is like that too...doesn't make street tires very happy either, But i like racing more than i hate the heat

Yeah, don't really want to wreck my one and only set of tires/wheels either. Summer heat can/will certainly do that.
Our best (or most prolific @ least) club member/racer destroyed a fairly good set of performance tires this summer doing just that. After one day @ autoX in San Antonio, the tread was missing big chunks and he had to replace them. ($$$)
My wife, and my wallet, wouldn't understand that.

They do not need to be SCCA sanctioned, but the results must show your name and car, etc. Even drag slips are eligible, as long as it meets their criteria. (www.mazdaspeedmotorsports.com)

Good link!! Thanks. Saved to favorites.

Nope, don't have to add any decals, but they are required if you place in the top 3 at a national event and want to claim your contingency money (first)

I don't think there's any chance I'd be running my car, or any car for that matter, in a National event. I once had hope for something like that, but came to realize that I have pretty average (being kind to save my own ego), though somewhat trained, performance driving talent.

 

[BKK Jack]

This is interesting. I was looking at just doing springs/bars without changing the dampers, but I think it would be better to have the springs and dampers designed to work together. I will have to wait until I get the car, though. I once spent $600.00 of hard-earned college beer money on a set-up for my 81 Civic, and then found I couldn't do it myself, or find a shop to do it either. That was before the internet and eBay, and unloading it was impossible. It might still be in my parent's garage.

 

[hyck]

Solo, wanted to ask you about the Mazdaspeed Motorsports membership, do you only save on mazdaspeed parts, and from only their site, or can you order other brand parts from other sites... Thanks

 

[Solo2Protege]

hyck: You can get competition parts, Mazdaspeed branded parts AND OEM parts. There are some written restrictions on body parts...but i have bought a hood before...

but ya, you'd have to order through the MSM site. This is not the same as a Mazdaspeed approved dealer, same parts, but prices are less through MSM.

 

[bbrich57]

...I once spent $600.00 of hard-earned college beer money on a set-up for my 81 Civic, and then found I couldn't do it myself, or find a shop to do it either. That was before the internet and eBay, and unloading it was impossible. It might still be in my parent's garage.

'81 CIVIC!!!! Now you're talkin' my language!! I LOVED my '80 Civic. All I did was put some Tokico shocks/struts in there and what a difference!! I used to autox that car with only a few engine/carb mods.
Even now I'm not sure whether I liked that car better than this one or not. Hard choice.
My Ex had an '87 and I would've taken the '80 over it any day of the week.
Man, pretty bad when you jack your own thread, huh? (rlaugh)

 

[jmv]

COILOVERS COILOVERS!!!!

haha, i just say that cuz i think thats what i'd do with my car. But honestly it sounds like maybe nicely matched up springs/struts/shocks would be best for you??

regardless, i wanna see it when you get it done!!

 

[bbrich57]

COILOVERS COILOVERS!!!!

haha, i just say that cuz i think thats what i'd do with my car. But honestly it sounds like maybe nicely matched up springs/struts/shocks would be best for you??

regardless, i wanna see it when you get it done!!

Wow!! Talk about bringing a dead thread back from the dead... even if it IS my own. (lol)
I thought I'd check in after finding it still in my e-mail inbox.
Jason, you KNOW you'll see it, the question should be, will it (Virgin1, I mean) ever BE done. Is your MSP ever done?
All right, so I'm making waves here, but you've met me several times. You should know..... (poke) :bs:

UPDATE to all: I found a set of H&R springs (1.3F/1.2R,) used 2K(?), who's price I just couldn't pass up (<$80.) And a set of SPC camber links from a guy going out of business on eBay and advertised as for a Ford Focus, but sub-titled: Mazda3.
Let's just say that I practically stole them, considering what they usually cost. I picked them up yesterday from the PO and they are perfect, perfect, Perfectly brand new. So the decision has been made for me, kind of.
Now, for the install, and to find a good alignment man. (shocked)

 

[tsunami]

what about struts? going to wait a while before you do that?

not sure how incompatible it would be but the koni's make a nice set sprung to either the factory specs or the eibach sport lines... which are close to the same drop as the H&R but its a progressive spring where the H&R isn't??? not sure how that would affect the rates may want to ask steve at nsn as he is a distributor... good luck with the install so jealous of you guys that can mod year round... i got parts building up in my closet again

 

[MM3Canuck]

have been talking(PM'ing) to bbrich about lowering in general (thanks for all your info bbrich), but I still have a few questions!!

When installing springs/bars, can I keep my stock shocks etc? Or do I have to get different shocks?

I heard that if you keep your stock shocks, your ride gets "bouncy" is that true? I just dont want to be going over bumps and have my whole car lift of the ground.