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Regarding MS3 sway bar
- Thread starter F1 Rox
- Start date
At least in the 2010 MS3 they are solid. I would imagine that unless the diameter of whatever ARB you're looking at is much over 26mm (1inch) it's solid too.
Mazda USA Spec Sheet
Under "Engine and Mechanical"
Mazda USA Spec Sheet
Under "Engine and Mechanical"
oaklandopen
Member
is that mazda5 or bmw m5? if it's the bimmer i would just stick wit that car
MikeHTally
Member
- :
- 2008.5 Speed3, 2006 Chrysler 300C, 2003 Ram 1500
A hollow tube has greater rigidity than a solid rod.considering the thickness I bet it is solid. otherwise would kill the rigidity.
My OEM RSB is buried somewhere (garage or shed) (scratch). I think it's solid. The Cobb is hollow, other after-market units probably are, too.
A hollow tube has greater rigidity than a solid rod.
That's not necessarily true. A 26mm OD bar will be stiffer than any 26mm OD tube. A hollow tube can be made stiffer if it has a larger OD, but just being hollow does not make it stiffer. A hollow tube can be made stiffer for the same weight, but again it's not always true.
mr_mazda329
Member
- :
- 97 Mazda Miata; 09 CWP Mazdaspeed 3
Most OEM bars are solid, most Aftermarket bars are hollow.
kwsmithphoto
Member
- :
- 2009 Mazdaspeed3
The MS3 has solid sway bars, front and rear. They're cheaper to produce and easier to package than hollow bars are.
I don't know about aftermarket front bars, but the Cobb, Hotchkis, and Tri-Point rear bars are all 32mm hollow.
As for hollow vs. solid, it's mostly about wall thickness. But on the Tri-Point bar, unlike any other on the market for this car, the only hollow point is the lateral section. The longitudinal sections are thick, machined metal blocks that don't bend, the lateral section does all the work. It also weighs 8 pounds more than the OEM sway bar, probably because the machined plates on the side look like they could hold up a bridge.
What's the difference? I don't really know and they aren't talking, but I can say that it works exceptionally well, and looks extremely cool. It reduces understeer over a very wide speed range and is very predictable. Since they're a high level race team, who designs suspensions from scratch, I figure they discovered a pretty good reason to make it that way.
I don't know about aftermarket front bars, but the Cobb, Hotchkis, and Tri-Point rear bars are all 32mm hollow.
As for hollow vs. solid, it's mostly about wall thickness. But on the Tri-Point bar, unlike any other on the market for this car, the only hollow point is the lateral section. The longitudinal sections are thick, machined metal blocks that don't bend, the lateral section does all the work. It also weighs 8 pounds more than the OEM sway bar, probably because the machined plates on the side look like they could hold up a bridge.
What's the difference? I don't really know and they aren't talking, but I can say that it works exceptionally well, and looks extremely cool. It reduces understeer over a very wide speed range and is very predictable. Since they're a high level race team, who designs suspensions from scratch, I figure they discovered a pretty good reason to make it that way.
MikeHTally
Member
- :
- 2008.5 Speed3, 2006 Chrysler 300C, 2003 Ram 1500
That's not necessarily true. A 26mm OD bar will be stiffer than any 26mm OD tube. A hollow tube can be made stiffer if it has a larger OD, but just being hollow does not make it stiffer. A hollow tube can be made stiffer for the same weight, but again it's not always true.
Try this experiment: Go to your neighborhood big-box hardware store. Pick up an eight-foot piece of 1/2" conduit and an eight-foot piece of solid aluminum rod. See which one flexes and which one maintains its shape.
Those of us old enough to remember "Mr. Wizard" should remember his demonstration of tubes, rods, i-beams, boards, etc.
mr_mazda329
Member
- :
- 97 Mazda Miata; 09 CWP Mazdaspeed 3
A good hollow bar can be just as strong as a solid. Your not going to break/ twist it while driving/ racing. People usually go with hollow bars (aftermarket) because the advantage of less weight. Less sprung weight is a good thing. Less un-sprung weight is even better.
I dont see the point in debating which is stronger anyways. You all act like you've snapped tons of them.
and Mr Wizard is awesome. I used to watch him before i went to school in the mornings.
I dont see the point in debating which is stronger anyways. You all act like you've snapped tons of them.
and Mr Wizard is awesome. I used to watch him before i went to school in the mornings.
oaklandopen
Member
and Mr Wizard is awesome. I used to watch him before i went to school in the mornings.
ef yah....me too!!!
Try this experiment: Go to your neighborhood big-box hardware store. Pick up an eight-foot piece of 1/2" conduit and an eight-foot piece of solid aluminum rod. See which one flexes and which one maintains its shape.
I have bent 6061-T6 and 4130-RC28 tubes of the same dimensions on the same tube bender and the aluminum is butter compared to steel, but that's only because it's aluminum (spin)
It's about the stiffness of the metal, the strength of the metal, and about the cross-sectional inertia of what you've designed. A hollow tube will always be stiffer than a solid bar made of the same amount of the same material because the cross-sectional inertia is better, but a 25mm hollow tube will not be stiffer than a 25mm solid tube.
The open-wheel car in my sig has a 4130-steel ARB designed by a friend of mine and I, that I machined and welded. Don't worry, it's hollow ;-) and we had it heat-treated to Rockwell C40-45 (if memory serves) to improve it's strength (rockon)
kwsmithphoto
Member
- :
- 2009 Mazdaspeed3
Just to clarify and expand on what you said, aluminum is actually stiffer than steel in general, pound for pound. But to get the same torsional stiffness with an aluminum tube than a steel tube, the wall thickness needs to be considerably higher.
But it will still be lighter. Fatigue is the next major factor, aluminum doesn't like to be bent, and will crack and fail with repeated flexing much, much faster than steel will.
That's why nobody's ever been dumb enough to make an aluminum spring. But it's very good for relatively static parts like frame sections and body panels, you can build a stiffer part that's lighter than a steel equivalent of the same strength, you just don't want it to move very much, very often because it weakens much faster.
The aircraft industry figured this out long before the auto industry did. Yes, the wings you see flexing on a bumpy flight are mostly aluminum, but there's a steel alloy tube (chrome-moly) tube called a wing spar that spans the length of wing, and limits the amount of flex that the aluminum has to endure.
More exotic cars that make extensive use of aluminum still support high load areas with steel. Both metals are very well suited for certain things, but in many cases, a stamped or forged steel part will be stronger and sometimes lighter lighter than an aluminum equivalent. BMW and Audi in particular are struggling with this - despite their extensive use of aluminum in critical areas, they're finding that it cracks and bends a lot easier. Many, many BMW Z8's have bent frames, and Audi has a history of cracked aluminum control arms.
But it will still be lighter. Fatigue is the next major factor, aluminum doesn't like to be bent, and will crack and fail with repeated flexing much, much faster than steel will.
That's why nobody's ever been dumb enough to make an aluminum spring. But it's very good for relatively static parts like frame sections and body panels, you can build a stiffer part that's lighter than a steel equivalent of the same strength, you just don't want it to move very much, very often because it weakens much faster.
The aircraft industry figured this out long before the auto industry did. Yes, the wings you see flexing on a bumpy flight are mostly aluminum, but there's a steel alloy tube (chrome-moly) tube called a wing spar that spans the length of wing, and limits the amount of flex that the aluminum has to endure.
More exotic cars that make extensive use of aluminum still support high load areas with steel. Both metals are very well suited for certain things, but in many cases, a stamped or forged steel part will be stronger and sometimes lighter lighter than an aluminum equivalent. BMW and Audi in particular are struggling with this - despite their extensive use of aluminum in critical areas, they're finding that it cracks and bends a lot easier. Many, many BMW Z8's have bent frames, and Audi has a history of cracked aluminum control arms.
Yes, the wings you see flexing on a bumpy flight are mostly aluminum, but there's a steel alloy tube (chrome-moly) tube called a wing spar that spans the length of wing, and limits the amount of flex that the aluminum has to endure.
I work with a tech who was an A&P mechanic for 20+ years and he's never worked on a plane with a cro-moly spar. Ever. Tube-frames sure, but never in the wings. If there were two materials with different stiffnesses mated together in a device that flexes as much as wing they would damage each other, and they would make a nice galvanic cell and corrode one another very quickly.
kwsmithphoto
Member
- :
- 2009 Mazdaspeed3
Hmm, I always assumed that most planes had a steel spar but apparently not.
There are planes that use steel tube frames with aluminum skins, like the Aero Commander, but they don't flex much, and use construction tricks to prevent the dissimilar metal bonding problem. Many race cars were built this way, and some passenger cars too. But not many wings, if any. Interesting.
There are planes that use steel tube frames with aluminum skins, like the Aero Commander, but they don't flex much, and use construction tricks to prevent the dissimilar metal bonding problem. Many race cars were built this way, and some passenger cars too. But not many wings, if any. Interesting.
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