Question to MSP AutoXers

[Leigh]

Just wanting to stir up some conversation & maybe get some input...

I've been doing AutoX for about a year but only had the MSP for a few months. So far I really enjoy driving it, but today I had it out at a local event(I've been running DS on the stock bridgestones - this was my 4th event with the MSP) and spent the whole time doing 360s =/

I'm not sure how much of it was the tires not liking the weather (its unseasonably cold today), or how much of it was the lack of grip thanks to build up on the course (there was another event run last weekend at the same location and with an overlapping course) but it seemed like the rear end was swinging loose everytime I pushed even a little.

I've noticed an increase in tendency towards oversteer since I had the rear bushing replaced a few weeks ago also. I'm feeling mostly confused about it since I'm used to driving a FWD car that understeers pretty badly... just wondered if other MSP owners might have some tips for dealing with the tendency towards oversteer in a FWD car.

Also - does anyone consider their car hard to drive? I've had so many people come up to me and in the same sentence tell me they love my car and think it's capable of a whole lot, and also that they think its hard to drive. Up until today I've though it was pretty easy to handle.... just a bit too quick to shake loose. hmm...

Then again, I'm still pretty slow - maybe I just don't know any better =P

 

[TitanB]

Our tires suck. Ive seen alot of mspers who autoX change them to something better. I havent done any autoX in mine yet, but Ive been meaning to. My car seems to hug very well on curvey roads, where you were 360ing was it a sharp turn or where you going to fast or what? Driving school would be anthor option that would probably help alot in just learning to handle the car more.


**edit** You can pm distantea, i know they autoX quite abit.

 

[Leigh]

Our tires suck

Not as bad as what I used to run

They're not grippy enough though - the car feels like it could go so much faster if the wheels just would stop letting go.

the 360s were at the entry/exit to a slalom (both 90ish degree corners), entry was fast, slalom was fast, exit was fast. Think I may have been drifting off line towards the end of slalom too... that was probably bad =/

Also - I am an idiot.
I lowered my tire pressure on the fronts this morning when I started sliding and forgot I'd decided to try adding air all around (I usually run the rear at about 34 which is what I run street all around <- I drive hard) because of the cold. Perhaps my problem was more that my rear tires were actually running 1-2psi higher than my fronts. >.<;

Driving school is definately on the agenda - just have to wait till they happen later in the year.

 

[dolphin]

Our tires are not great but they are fairly consistent. Yes the cold cause them to not grip well but they stay pretty predictable. The first thing I looked at would be the tire pressure. Then I would have them check that something did not loosen up and slip the alignment out of spec.

If all this is OK it is probably how you are entering the turn. Since the chassis is fairly balanced, if you brake into the turn, you can cause the back to come around on you. Another way to get the back end around is to go into the turn under power and let go of the gas.

 

[DistantTea]

Well for starters there are very few possiblities for our cars to spin out. If you are spinning its because of your driving. You rotate the car by accelerating hard, turn and then brake hard... that'll spin virtually any car regardless of drive config. The trick to MSP autocrossing is learning not to overdrive the car. Smooth transitions and remember, use that throttle! The throttle will pull your car straight every time, sometimes even when you don't want it to.

On the note of traction with the OEMs you were running way too low. On the OEMs I had great success with starting at 45/45 psi and then lowering the fronts to increase bite. 40/50 ended up working really well for short courses with tight turns but would eat it on sweepers. I ruined my bridgestones in 6 autocrosses (two driver car with my wife). They are pretty good tires though. Not as bad as an all season... not as good as the ones you really want though.

The driver school will help alot. If there is an Evolution school in your area jump at it. I'll be going to on in Kentucky in May... even though there's one down the road here in March.. but dammit its like 40 degrees in march. Screw that.

But the biggest help I can tell you is not to overdrive the car. Slow down for the tight stuff and position your car for the straight. You may loose a quarter second if you slow down too much for a really tight corner, but blow the exit of that corner or spend too much time correcting because the car is all out of whack and you'll lose seconds... and seconds are eternity between the cones.

 

[Leigh]

The odd thing today was that I was getting out of control without doing anything that I could really see should have sent me into a spin (I'm not completely new at this, and I'm not in the habit of spinning cars). The car sort of overbalanced when I eased off the throttle at the end of a fast section and then it was just gone before I could do anything to stop it. Adding throttle seemed to just spin me further. It was really strange since I ran a similarly setup slalom last weekend with no problems. My driver's front tire is looking abnormally crapped out though, so I'm going to get the alignment checked in case.

On the OEMs I had great success with starting at 45/45 psi and then lowering the fronts to increase bite.

You seriously run them that high? I nearly trashed my car running 40/38 my first event on the bridgestones. I've found 38/34 to be the most stable, although I was getting slightly better wear with 38/36. Anything higher and I have 0 grip, and I've thought about experimenting with a drop of 1-2 since I'm still not really running across the full span of tread...

We have a few Evolution schools that come through the area, but most of them won't be times I can get to until mid-summer.

I am a wuss. I got yelled at for not being agressive enough just last week. It amuses me I'm overdriving my car a week later. Maybe my roomie hid some lead in my shoes. =P

 

[dolphin]

Leigh,
Tire pressure depends on many things including your driving style. It will change as your driving style changes, from course as to course as DistantTea talks about and with the weather. So you know where I am coming from, I am a very aggressive driver and I have been autocrossing for 35 years. This does not make me a great driver but I do have a lot of experience.

My tire pressure is part way between you at 42/40 for most courses. At these pressures I am using the whole thead face running on a very grippy concrete surface. On asphalt, I usually come down 2 PSI in each end. For tight courses, I raise the back as much as 10 PSI but as DistantTea says that is a hand full in fast sweeping turns. Right now since it is cold, I start my pressure higher because they will not get much heat build up. I the summer, I start them lower but after the heat build up they are about the same pressure.

Our OEM tires seem to like to drift a bit more than an "R" tire. They seem to fastest at higher slip angles. In addition to the soft rubber compound, this causes them to wear quickly. These slip angles can feel like the tires are not gripping, which they sort of aren't, but seem to generate the fastest times on the course. When you lower the tire pressure, you dull the tires responses and they seem more stable.

I hope this makes sense but I am not sure I expressed it very well.

 

[MSP Pro]

Interesting discussion. Since you're in Texas, what temp do you mean by unseasonably cold? 45? 50? I ran street tire class on the OEM Bridgestones last year and had very good grip on asphalt at F 38/ R 35 in cooler temps, which is 50 to 60 degrees. As soon as it got above 75 degrees, the tires went greasy on me until I started wetting them down between runs. I'm trying to be smoother in my handling, so I'm trying to limit my aggressiveness and concentrate on placing the car properly.

Since you had the rear sway bar bushings replaced, did you look under the car to check the work? Perhaps they are misaligned and are binding. And an alignment check at the first of the season couldn't hurt. Keep smiling, and keep practicing. This is a lovely autox car and the more you run it, the more you'll learn and the better you'll get.

 

[TitanB]

hehe, good thread. We need a mazda driving school somewhere. Im sure we could find 1 or 30 ppl to go to it.l

 

[Leigh]

My tire pressure is part way between you at 42/40 for most courses. At these pressures I am using the whole thead face running on a very grippy concrete surface. On asphalt, I usually come down 2 PSI in each end.

Ah - that's more what I expected. The place I run most often is fairly rough asphalt, when I've gone to other venues I've found that higher pressures sometimes work better, but I don't get a chance to get out of the area often enough to know exactly what works best with what surface/conditions.

I don't really mind the OEM tires tendency to drift a bit, its kind of fun to actually set up a corner expecting to slide towards the outside and then have the car actually do what I wanted it to. Of course, I'm not good enough yet to make much use of it yet though except as a bit of entertainment... Still there are times I'd rather be gripping than slipping...

Weather yesterday was between 38-42, but it felt about 30 with the wind chill. I hate the wind in Texas.

I will double check the rear bushings. I need to rotate my tires anyway this week so I'll remember to get a good look while the car is up.

On alignment, if I'm going to get it checked, does everyone find the stock settings to be best? Or have you tried others that have worked better?

This is a lovely autox car and the more you run it, the more you'll learn and the better you'll get.

I do love this car - even when I screw up with it like yesterday I feel like its teaching me something.

 

[DistantTea]

The MSP is a wonderful car to get schooled in the ways of autocrossing. I started out really slow last year (my first full autocross year). Slowly but surely the MSP taught me how to drive and I started moving through the results list. When I had destroyed my OEMs I bought some R compounds and started the learning experience over but at a different level. By the end of the year I just barely missed first place, took novice of the year, a placed 7th in our regions fastest PAX year end result. A duller, less involving car... maybe like a WRX wouldn't have taught me as much as the terribly unapologetic MSP.

I would definately have a performance alignment done on your car if you plan on autocrossing more. I'd say something might be a bit out of whack on your rear alignment... lots of toe out or something. My alignment shop managed -1.2 degrees of camber for me in the front, lots of caster and because I had already ruined the tires I took a very neutral toe/in/out on all wheels. This year I'm going to let them do a full race spec alignment within stock regulations. Probably the same camber and caster but with a more agressive toe setting in the rear to help turn the car.

Plus I'm just dying for those Kumho 710s to come out in 225/45/17s.

As far as tire pressures... its going to just kill you how much this stuff dosn't make sense. With the OEM tires on my first autocross of the year I had to race against John Souder in an identical (except black) MSP. I was running something like 38/38 and I found out he was running 50/40!!!! He was three seconds faster than me. For the next heat I raised them to 45/45 and I got about a second and a half faster. But then the next week I was on a completely different surface and different course and those tire pressures didn't work at all. Thats when I learned to stagger... but the fact remains I made at least two tire pressure mistakes per event for the first half of the year. Then I got the r compounds and continued to make tire pressure mistake after mistake. This year I might get a pyrometer because I'm virtually retarded when it comes to pressures. I actually have my wife do the actual settings. She can't tell what the car is doing (understeering, sliding, skipping... etc) and I can, but apparently I can't make the right pressure choices and she can... so the codrive works out real well.

 

[dolphin]

Leigh,
Let me clear up something that I may have left unclear. When I said that I was using the whole tread face, I was actually taking the front. On the back, as long as it is not rolling over too far, I don't care how much of the tread it is using. On my Miata, it is a different story.

DistantTea,
I have tried the higher rear pressure. I have not used as large a difference as you do. Perhaps I did not go extreme enough. I may try it at the next event and see how that works out.

On a new topic, I have a set of 215/40-17 SP9K's that I got to run the MP3. They are on the MP3 wheels, so I may try them as well. The SP9K's seem to need higher pressure than the OEM Bridgestones. Well I guess I'll find out.

 

[Leigh]

When I said that I was using the whole tread face, I was actually taking the front.

I had kind of assumed that - rear wheels don't drive anything so as long as I'm not eating them apart I usually just stick them lower than the fronts and kind of ignore them. Maybe not the best strategy, but it works for now and I get confused enough about tires playing with just 2 of them.

Plus I'm just dying for those Kumho 710s to come out in 225/45/17s

What are you running now? I was thinking of getting Victoracers once my stock tires die....

Kind of related: besides the Pro Race 1s are there any lightweight wheels that will fit our cars without knocking them out of stock class? I'm having a hell of a time finding options with our offset... and while I'm not against using the Pro Race 1s I haven't found anywhere nearby that wouldn't need to special order them for me (meaning: no idea how long it would take them to get here)...

 

[DistantTea]

What are you running now? I was thinking of getting Victoracers once my stock tires die....

Kind of related: besides the Pro Race 1s are there any lightweight wheels that will fit our cars without knocking them out of stock class? I'm having a hell of a time finding options with our offset... and while I'm not against using the Pro Race 1s I haven't found anywhere nearby that wouldn't need to special order them for me (meaning: no idea how long it would take them to get here)...

I'm running 225/45/17 Ecsta V700s in the front and 205/40/17 V700s in the rear. Next year I'll be running 5mm spacers and running 225/45s all around, but I'd rather wait until the new V710s come out. My 225s were shaved and I heat cycled them myself. I've found on our cars that the shaved 225s last much longer than full tread.

On the note of wheels... just don't worry about it. Use your OEMs for this year and learn. Stay on street tires for a while. My wife and I got most of our racing education from really really messy courses on street tires, sliding and flying so to speak. I'd say at least 6 events on street tires... maybe a whole season if you can keep the tire bug away. Because once you get R compounds the entire world changes, grip becomes addictive and every bad habbit a novice driver might have gets hidden through newer lateral grip. Its important to develop those good habbits of motorsports first, learn how to control the car at its lower limits... then move on to competition tires. Otherwise you might get frustrated as more experienced drivers in lesser cars go flying by in the results pages.

 

[Leigh]

I've no intention of switching from streets soon, but I'd like to know what my options are, especially if I end up having to order stuff that will take time to get here.

I've run 4 events with the MSP on street tires so far, and hope to get at least another 8 before they go out - I'm doing about 2 events a month right now. I'm hoping to re-evaluate in a few months, if I feel like I'm still making silly mistakes I'll just replace the street tires and keep running on those, if I'm putting in better times by then I would like to have seperate tires for AutoX, though I might still consider going with a better suited high performance tire rather than jumping straight to r-compounds.

I guess I just like to have all the imformation well ahead of time - gives me things to think about - plus spare wheels/tires aren't exactly cheap and I want to budget for them well ahead of the game

 

[dolphin]

Leigh,
Chasing down information is a good thing. By that time, we should see what the new tires from Kumho and Hoosier are going to do.

After > 15 years on "R" tires, I went back to street tires. There were two reasons for that. First I got my daughter started autocrossing in my car and I was on "R" tires and she needed to be on street tires. Then my son started autocrossing. Now that I am back on street tires I don't know that I will go back to "R" tires. The last couple of years it has been nice to drive up an event, walk the course, get a cup of coffee and wander around talking to people while they change their tires. It is relaxing.

 

[MSP Pro]

When I went looking for wheels, I was very thorough and checked about 100 different wheels and I came up with exactly two: the Team Dynamics Pro Race 1 (cast) at about $160 each and 15.5 lbs; and the Centerline RPM (forged) at about $280 each and 13.5 lbs. And the Centerlines had to be special ordered to get the +50 offset, which wasn't listed on the web site. Oh, and the OZ Superleggera (cast) at $280 each and 17.5 lbs. Other than these, it was almost impossible to find anything in 17 x 7 with a +50 offset. If you can go to 17 x 7.5 (not legal for stock autox) you can find some Rays or SSRs that will fit, but are very expensive.

 

[MikeyG_U2]

The stock tires suck anytime it gets cold. I had the same problem at my last few autocrosses last fall. If you are doing a track-type autocross where you get as many laps as you can take, try doing the first few laps moderately to warm up the tires, then start to hit it.

I would guess most of your problem is the tires. They lose grip fast when it gets cold.

 

[MrDiggler]

Sweet. I think I found the peeps to help me get started autoX'ing my MSP. I've never done it and would love to learn to be a better driver. Any ideas on who to contact? Is it still run by the SCCA?

 

[Leigh]

Sweet. I think I found the peeps to help me get started autoX'ing my MSP. I've never done it and would love to learn to be a better driver. Any ideas on who to contact? Is it still run by the SCCA?

Look for local groups in your area. The SCCA is one of the largest and have regions across the country that run events (http://www.scca.org/ - scroll down to the region locator to find a group nearby). There are also a lot of local groups that run AutoX events. http://www.autocross.com/autoc/clublist.htm is a good source of the groups in different areas and include those SCCA regions that do AutoX.

My experience is that most groups are happy to have newbies so just get in touch with someone at your local group and they'll be able to tell you how everything works. If there's more than one group nearby look for one with a good novice program for your first event; especially with larger groups some will have instructors available to help get you started &/or will run novice classes.