P5 on the track, brake issues?

[charles]

No. They will be worse! Less surface area, and, to boot, more likely to crack!

Cross-drilled was made a long time ago to deal with brake pad gassing ... an issue that is no longer relevant. Slotting sometimes is used to clean pads on rally cars, but that is not an issue on the pavement.

If you want to upgrade your rotors, get larger / thicker ones, if there are any that fit.

...

Most people should just go to the track first to figure out what there car needs, not have to guess. You can go a lot faster by improving the driver before improving handling or power. Braking is always important, and good to have, though.

Edit: Also, if you run all-season 40,000 mile style tires, they will probably heat up first. If it's rated as "Temperature A" it will probably be OK.

 

[zumi]

yes...make sure you have fresh oil in your car before the track day and change it afterward...oil when it gets really hot doesn't lubricate as well

eek, that's another 7 quarts of Mobil1. Well i guess it's got to be done huh? I thought maybe 2 month old mobil1 would still be decent... =(

Are you going with NASA HPDE?

I'm going with my bro-in-law and his Audi club. So yeah, I'll get burned by the S4's and 2.8's, hopefully there'll be some FWD 1.8T's to play with =). Oh well, it's all about learning, having fun, and not killing myself or the car. =) My cousin will also be there with his auto celica GT, apparently his stock brakes are more race inspired than ours. =( http://tinyurl.com/y7pj

No. They will be worse! Less surface area, and, to boot, more likely to crack!
...
Edit: Also, if you run all-season 40,000 mile style tires, they will probably heat up first. If it's rated as "Temperature A" it will probably be OK.

Isn't there more surface area with the extra surfaces created by the holes and slots tho? I mean, i would guess there's a reason why Porsches have them. =)

and i'll be on my stock tires

 

[charles]

Drilling holes in the surface would make less surface area, no?
I don't know why Porsche has rotors like that, but they aren't actually drilled. They are cast that way, which is stronger, but from most accounts I've heard that people switch them out for solid rotors. I don't know that many people with newer Porsches though, nor do I read their forums or anything. I suspect that some of that may be due to the fact the Porsche can be kind of a poseur car...

I don't know about the stock tires, but I'm sure they're fine. Heck, they're probably better than my no name 195/60/14s

Don't worry about going slowly. Just cruise the course in 4th gear, if you want! A lot of the people with those fancy cars don't know what they are doing. I've seen people with Vipers doing the stupidest stuff, yet they still think they are going pretty fast, all they have to do is mash the pedal and get knocked back in the seat. I've gone to two different road courses with a 103hp automatic protege, it was still a ton of fun... but I got a stickshift and 22 more horses now, oh well.

 

[zumi]

Drilling holes in the surface would make less surface area, no?
I don't know why Porsche has rotors like that, but they aren't actually drilled. They are cast that way, which is stronger, but from most accounts I've heard that people switch them out for solid rotors. I don't know that many people with newer Porsches though, nor do I read their forums or anything. I suspect that some of that may be due to the fact the Porsche can be kind of a poseur car...

I don't know about the stock tires, but I'm sure they're fine. Heck, they're probably better than my no name 195/60/14s

Don't worry about going slowly. Just cruise the course in 4th gear, if you want! A lot of the people with those fancy cars don't know what they are doing. I've seen people with Vipers doing the stupidest stuff, yet they still think they are going pretty fast, all they have to do is mash the pedal and get knocked back in the seat. I've gone to two different road courses with a 103hp automatic protege, it was still a ton of fun... but I got a stickshift and 22 more horses now, oh well.

from a purely heat transfer point of view, i can believe that having holes in the rotor will help to dissipate the heat better...air can flow through them for better convection (if i learned anything from my heat transfer class). It's like those bunt cakes....they have a hole through them for more even heating during baking. not convection but similar idea. yummy. =)

haha, yeah i've heard stories of the guys in vipers who spin out from all that power. oh well, like you said, it's not about speed. especially if it's raining and everybody else has quattro. heheh.

 

[jaje]

eek, that's another 7 quarts of Mobil1. Well i guess it's got to be done huh? I thought maybe 2 month old mobil1 would still be decent... =(

i think of it this way...$ spent up front makes the car last longer (me especially since i have a turbo which causes the engine to run much hotter)

with a stock engine with little modifications you probably don't have to change the oil before or right after...but i always did it on my crx and it had a much better designed engine and tranny than the pr5 does

 

[kcbhiw]

i think of it this way...$ spent up front makes the car last longer (me especially since i have a turbo which causes the engine to run much hotter)

with a stock engine with little modifications you probably don't have to change the oil before or right after...but i always did it on my crx and it had a much better designed engine and tranny than the pr5 does

Oil's cheap. A change before and after is good preventative maintenance, especially after considering how much harder it will be run in that 30 minute or so time frame (when compared to normal driving).

 

[gar777]

I don't really see how the rotors would present a problem. However, the stock pads will. I recommend a set of at least Hawk HP+ pads with a spare set of rotors (front only-precautionary). Under heaving breaking into the corner, you could experience serious brake fade with the stock pads. Hawk HP+ pads are quite good for mild track days. Assuming that this is your first time on such a track, these should suffice. For the seasoned road course racer, the HP+ pads, too, will be insufficient.

The stock rotors are just cast iron rotors like any other. Specual rotors such as slotted/drilled for this situation are unnecessary.

Where did you find HP+ pads for your Protege (or are you talking about your Miata)? I haven't been able to find the HP+ pads anywhere.

If they aren't available, does anyone know the next best pads for street/track use? I am leaning toward the Porterfield R4S but they are a bit pricey, something like $150-190 per set shipped. Any suggestions?

 

[zumi]

Where did you find HP+ pads for your Protege (or are you talking about your Miata)? I haven't been able to find the HP+ pads anywhere.

If they aren't available, does anyone know the next best pads for street/track use? I am leaning toward the Porterfield R4S but they are a bit pricey, something like $150-190 per set shipped. Any suggestions?

they're available at www.tirerack.com

 

[gar777]

I would second the recommendation of ATE Super Blue Racing brake fluid. Pretty cheap at www.raceconcepts.net (like $10 per can and 1 can was enough to flush my Protege's entire system)

I would also recommend Speedbleeders, available at: www.soloperformance.com They cost like $30 and replace the normal bleed valves. Benefit is that it makes it easy for one-man to bleed the brakes, and quickly too. Once on stands with the wheels removed, it's like 10 minutes total for the 4 corners. Pretty cool.

I recently took my 3 month-old ES to Lime Rock Park with stock pads and the brakes faded but worked fairly well all day. By the ride home, though, I knew I needed new pads, if nothing else to restore the nice firm pedal I got with the new car. Bleeding the fluid and SS lines will help but there's no replacement for a big fat pad! Now I need to find good street/track pads for a reas. price. Seems like mission impossible for this car. Any suggestions would be appreciated.

 

[kcbhiw]

Where did you find HP+ pads for your Protege (or are you talking about your Miata)? I haven't been able to find the HP+ pads anywhere.

If they aren't available, does anyone know the next best pads for street/track use? I am leaning toward the Porterfield R4S but they are a bit pricey, something like $150-190 per set shipped. Any suggestions?

Zumi got it right...try Tire Rack.

Also, be advised that you should switch back to stock pads after your track event (not immediately howver, you can at least drive home ). The Porterfields, when not up to "track" temp, will cut the rotor (wear) much quicker than stocks will. If used as a daily driver pad, your rotor will actually wear out before the pads. The HP+'s will wear the rotors faster than a stock pad as well, but not as bad as the PF's. Also, wipe down your wheels (if using alloys) as soon as you can. The dust from these pads will eat the finish on your wheels.

 

[gar777]

they're available at www.tirerack.com

that's awesome (and new since I checked Tire Rack a month or two ago and they only had the HPS version, not the HP+).

Tire Rack doesn't list HP+ pads for the rear. Does anyone know if Hawk makes HP+ pads for the Protege rear?

If not, I guess I could run the HP+ in front with the HPS in rear but the F/R balance could be a bit off--does anyone have experience with that setup for track/heavy autoX use?

 

[kcbhiw]

that's awesome (and new since I checked Tire Rack a month or two ago and they only had the HPS version, not the HP+).

Tire Rack doesn't list HP+ pads for the rear. Does anyone know if Hawk makes HP+ pads for the Protege rear?

If not, I guess I could run the HP+ in front with the HPS in rear but the F/R balance could be a bit off--does anyone have experience with that setup for track/heavy autoX use?

Just go with the HPS's in the rear. Hell, you could probably go with Autozone premium metallics in the back, heh. That's what I do for my Miata. The front brake bias is much higher in the front than the rear, therefore, for what you'll be doing, just put the expensive ones up front.

 

[gar777]

Zumi got it right...try Tire Rack.

Also, be advised that you should switch back to stock pads after your track event (not immediately howver, you can at least drive home ). The Porterfields, when not up to "track" temp, will cut the rotor (wear) much quicker than stocks will. If used as a daily driver pad, your rotor will actually wear out before the pads. The HP+'s will wear the rotors faster than a stock pad as well, but not as bad as the PF's. Also, wipe down your wheels (if using alloys) as soon as you can. The dust from these pads will eat the finish on your wheels.

As for rotor wear, I have the R4Ss on my wife's Maxima and haven't noticed any accelerated wear and I love the pedal feel. Brake dust is worse than the stock Maxima pads but no worse than a typical BMW.

In the end, I'd like one pad for street AND track use, even if that means I have to change rotors/pads more often. After all, 4 corners of pads/rotors is only like $300-350, which isn't bad considering the difference this makes.

I just ordered the HP+ pads from Tire Rack, front only, and will install them with my stock rear pads and see how it all feels. For $80, I'll give it a try and throw them in when I'm installing the SS lines and flushing the fluid. Should make for a much improved feel and I'll test out the balance before next year's track events.

Thanks for the info!

 

[jaje]

if you are going to run pads as aggressive as the HP+ then i'd get new rotors as well (brembo blanks from tirerack are $100 a pair for fronts)

 

[gar777]

if you are going to run pads as aggressive as the HP+ then i'd get new rotors as well (brembo blanks from tirerack are $100 a pair for fronts)

i have only 3,000 mi on my stock rotors so I'm hoping they'll last awhile with the HP+ pads. the Protege is a new car for me so I have to learn some of this stuff the hard way. Besides, I won't mind a reason to get new rotors some time during the track season next summer. You gotta love the price of the stock rotors!

 

[zumi]

alright, so tonight i'm installing Hawk HPS pads and Motul 600 brake fluid. tomorrow i'm changing oil and then this weekend is the event. Any last minute advice for a first-time tracker? Maybe some advice on tire pressure, fuel octane/level, and what things to bring with me, etc. Anything will be appreciated. Thanks!

 

[kcbhiw]

As far as fuel, just use 87. Anything more won't help performance. You should also bring plenty of drinking water, an extra quart of oil, and a chair (folding chairs are $7 at walmart).

Also, stay out of the wall, it hurts . Remember you can't win a track day, but you can certainly lose it. Just be careful, be curteous to other drivers on the course and be aware of you surroundings (other drivers). Yeild the right of way (including the apex) to obviously faster drivers/cars.

Let us know how it all turns out! Good luck!

 

[alexlitov]

You can remove extra weight like your spare, floor mats and other stuff that you not going to need...

 

[gar777]

I always use high octane fuel, especially for all track/autox events. Some people say it isn't necessary and some say it is (depends on the ECU in my mind). In any event, the cost is minimal and I'd rather play it safe. After all, assuming a $0.10/gal. differential for the cost, 12,000 miles driven per yer and 20 m.p.g, it'd cost only $60 more for the entire year. Even if the difference is $0.20 per gallon, that's still only $120/year. If you don't want to use premium all the time, at least use it for track/autox events. All high performance cars call for premium fuel and there's a reason for that (even if our car doesn't). At the track you'll be running your car harder, shifting at redline more often, etc. Why risk any negative effects to save less than $5 on fuel? You didn't skimp on brake fluid, why skimp on gas? Our stock ECUs may not be programmed to take advantage of the extra timing advance that the higher octane fuel could permit, so you may not notice any power difference but why risk detonation or the timing retarding that some ECUs cause if low octane fuel/detonation is detected?

otherwise, here's some other advice:

1. get there early, get your car emptied out with appropriate numbers/class markings/novice stripes or whatever else the club requires and then get through tech early, before the line gets long. if you are late, you could lose track time.

2. listen to and follow all of the rules of the club running the event, especially the flags. Hopefully, they will have an instructor assigned to each newcomer like you as well as a classroom session or two to explain the flags and discuss the theory of high speed cornering, braking, etc.

3. when you're not driving, walk around the track (in safe, out of the way, permitted spots) to observe more experienced drivers. Ask questions of more experienced drivers, especially ones with similar cars (FWD, for example). If you can, ask to ride with an instructor or two in their run group so you can get an idea of what an experienced driver is doing at various points around the track.

4. take your time to learn the track and how your car corners, brakes, etc., at high speed. Learn where there is runoff room and where there isn't. Experiment going faster only at the points where there is runoff room. Be cautious at the other spots. This way, if you do loose control or need more braking room than you thought, you'll have room to recover safely.

5. Go at your own pace. Avoid the urge to race with anyone else. You are there to learn. At the end of the event, you want to drive your car home in one piece and come back and do this again and again.

6. Remember to have fun. That's the whole point--right?


It all seems like a huge deal when you're new but it's really not that big a deal (although i still have trouble sleeping the night before a track day from all the excitement, and I've had 70-80 track days and an SCCA competition license).

Good luck and have fun!

 

[charles]

I always use 87... I used 91 at Willow Springs and it didn't make a difference. *shrug*