P5 ABS is SH*T!!!
- Thread starter IchBinEinMP5
- Start date
As one previous poster mentioned, on loose (not "slick" as he said) surfaces ABS hurts stopping distances. This is because locking the wheels up on a loose surface plows up material ahead of the wheel which increases friction.
However, I find it much harder to brake on ice than snow. Ice is a slick but not loose surface. On ice ABS should help. Tires won't plow up or cut through ice.
Whether on snow or ice the rotors, calipers, and lines don't have much to do with braking performance. These components are not working very hard at the speeds we're talking about here. The #1 factor by a substantial margin is tires. Some tires brake far better on ice than others.
Today was the first day I've driven my P5 on icy roads. My initial impression was that the performance of the Dunlops on ice is mediocre at best but livable. I drove through the sub at 15 MPH. My previous car was a Ford Contour SE. It originally came with Firestone Firehawk GTAs. Godawful tires on ice. Even at 5 MPH they could slide forever. I changed to Michelin XGT H4s. They performed far better on ice. The Eagle RS-As on my wife's car also performed fairly well on ice for all-seasons.
No doubt winter tires would have performed exponentially better still. But most of my ice driving occurs in the quarter mile from my garage to the subdivision exit (or maybe for a mile to the other exit), and I'm not compromising my performance for half the year just to get out of the sub easier on the dozen or so days when the road is slick.
If the main streets are not plowed so promptly where you live, then winter tires are likely a very good investment. If you're all that worried about ABS performance on icy roads, you need winter tires. If you're worried about wet roads, there are likely better tires than the Dunlops for those as well.
However, I find it much harder to brake on ice than snow. Ice is a slick but not loose surface. On ice ABS should help. Tires won't plow up or cut through ice.
Whether on snow or ice the rotors, calipers, and lines don't have much to do with braking performance. These components are not working very hard at the speeds we're talking about here. The #1 factor by a substantial margin is tires. Some tires brake far better on ice than others.
Today was the first day I've driven my P5 on icy roads. My initial impression was that the performance of the Dunlops on ice is mediocre at best but livable. I drove through the sub at 15 MPH. My previous car was a Ford Contour SE. It originally came with Firestone Firehawk GTAs. Godawful tires on ice. Even at 5 MPH they could slide forever. I changed to Michelin XGT H4s. They performed far better on ice. The Eagle RS-As on my wife's car also performed fairly well on ice for all-seasons.
No doubt winter tires would have performed exponentially better still. But most of my ice driving occurs in the quarter mile from my garage to the subdivision exit (or maybe for a mile to the other exit), and I'm not compromising my performance for half the year just to get out of the sub easier on the dozen or so days when the road is slick.
If the main streets are not plowed so promptly where you live, then winter tires are likely a very good investment. If you're all that worried about ABS performance on icy roads, you need winter tires. If you're worried about wet roads, there are likely better tires than the Dunlops for those as well.
Ok, so I won't comment on the ABS in general but here is the comparison of 12 small cars and 60-0 stopping distances. Guess which car won? The protege, by just 1 ft to the next best but 13ft better than the RSX. The only 2 cars without ABS had stopping distances of 75-100 longer.
http://www.popularmechanics.com/automotive/new_cars_trucks/2003/8/mighty_mites/print.phtml
ACURARSX Type-S 139ft
DODGENeon SRT-4 137ft
FORDSVT Focus ZX5 129ft
HONDACivic Si 150ft
HYUNDAITiburon GT V6 228ft
MAZDASPEEDProteg 126ft
MINICooper S 128ft
MITSUBISHILancer Evo VIII 127ft
NISSANSentra SE-R Spec V 242ft
SUBARUImpreza WRX STi 134ft
TOYOTACelica GT-S 136ft
VOLKSWAGENJetta GLI 136ft
http://www.popularmechanics.com/automotive/new_cars_trucks/2003/8/mighty_mites/print.phtml
ACURARSX Type-S 139ft
DODGENeon SRT-4 137ft
FORDSVT Focus ZX5 129ft
HONDACivic Si 150ft
HYUNDAITiburon GT V6 228ft
MAZDASPEEDProteg 126ft
MINICooper S 128ft
MITSUBISHILancer Evo VIII 127ft
NISSANSentra SE-R Spec V 242ft
SUBARUImpreza WRX STi 134ft
TOYOTACelica GT-S 136ft
VOLKSWAGENJetta GLI 136ft
IchBinEinMP5
Member
Oh boy... let me detract the part about the P5's ABS being sh*t, that was part of being tired and sleepy and dissappointed that it wouldn't let me play in the snow... Our ABS system does its job good, could be a little better, but still alright.
Our ABS combined with excellent winter tires like I have make for great driving on plowed roads (where there is only a thin layer of snow, slush, or whatever) in fact it rarely kicks in, but when you have an unplowed road where the tires are rolling over loose snow, the ABS is a bit of a hindrence (however, easily overcome by just driving to match conditions (ie. driving slower, braking earlier, etc.)), but I would still rather have it off in that situation...
The cut-off switch is easy enough to do. There are several blanks in our dash to fit a Mazda switch, but ultimately you will have the ABS and e-brake warning lights on during this time. The trick is to have these lights not function ONLY when the ABS is off, so that they can operate properly the rest of the time. But since these situations present themselves only occasionally all winter, I suppose I can remove the fuse each time...
Our ABS combined with excellent winter tires like I have make for great driving on plowed roads (where there is only a thin layer of snow, slush, or whatever) in fact it rarely kicks in, but when you have an unplowed road where the tires are rolling over loose snow, the ABS is a bit of a hindrence (however, easily overcome by just driving to match conditions (ie. driving slower, braking earlier, etc.)), but I would still rather have it off in that situation...
The cut-off switch is easy enough to do. There are several blanks in our dash to fit a Mazda switch, but ultimately you will have the ABS and e-brake warning lights on during this time. The trick is to have these lights not function ONLY when the ABS is off, so that they can operate properly the rest of the time. But since these situations present themselves only occasionally all winter, I suppose I can remove the fuse each time...
This is a very interesting discussion for me to read. I develop ABS, TCS and ESP for a major supplier, unfortunately not for the Protege 
Either way, the basics are the same:
1. It will take ABS longer to stop on "deformable" surfaces like gravel or deep snow, the snowplow or wedge description is right on the money. Most factory specs are 120% of locked wheel stops on snow or gravel. The difference is that you can steer.
2. I know many good drivers can "beat" the ABS when trying, and certainly on the track. However, I doubt any of us could do it when a 4 year old jumps out in front of you, not even Schumacher. My race car has no ABS and at work I do probably 10 to 100 ABS -vs- non ABS stops a day and I still just mash the pedal when there's an emergency on the road.
3. Our mantra is "stability, steerability, stopping" meanting #1 don't spin the car, #2 let the driver steer, and #3 get it stopped. This is the direction from the OEM's and this is why you can beat it. Trust me, if we just had to drop anchor and not worry about controllability it would beat the best drivers.
4. No, you can't perform the perfect "Scandanavian flick" with ABS on, if so your gradma might accidently use those inputs and end up backwards. If you want to rally the car just pull the fuse.
A tip for improving the ABS performance is to still use your driving skill to more gently "load up" the brakes. If you wallop the pedal before weight can tranfer forward we have to dump pressure to keep the wheel from dropping right to lock. If you gradually apply pressure like you don't have ABS until you feel the car "set" and then push into ABS we will "conrol" the pressure rather than dump and recover.
Happy ABSing
Alex
Either way, the basics are the same:1. It will take ABS longer to stop on "deformable" surfaces like gravel or deep snow, the snowplow or wedge description is right on the money. Most factory specs are 120% of locked wheel stops on snow or gravel. The difference is that you can steer.
2. I know many good drivers can "beat" the ABS when trying, and certainly on the track. However, I doubt any of us could do it when a 4 year old jumps out in front of you, not even Schumacher. My race car has no ABS and at work I do probably 10 to 100 ABS -vs- non ABS stops a day and I still just mash the pedal when there's an emergency on the road.
3. Our mantra is "stability, steerability, stopping" meanting #1 don't spin the car, #2 let the driver steer, and #3 get it stopped. This is the direction from the OEM's and this is why you can beat it. Trust me, if we just had to drop anchor and not worry about controllability it would beat the best drivers.
4. No, you can't perform the perfect "Scandanavian flick" with ABS on, if so your gradma might accidently use those inputs and end up backwards. If you want to rally the car just pull the fuse.
A tip for improving the ABS performance is to still use your driving skill to more gently "load up" the brakes. If you wallop the pedal before weight can tranfer forward we have to dump pressure to keep the wheel from dropping right to lock. If you gradually apply pressure like you don't have ABS until you feel the car "set" and then push into ABS we will "conrol" the pressure rather than dump and recover.
Happy ABSing
Alex
Alex,
Question for you: do all ABS systems (to your knowledge) dump and then build-up pressure until just under lockup, or are there some that continually adjust to wheel lockup?
Just curious...I haven't done much research recently -- used to read everything about the industry back in the 80's.
Just to re-enforce what someone said before: Regardless of equipment (caliper size, # of pots, rotor diameter, etc.), the most important link is between the brakes and the road -- namely, your tires.
I've personally gone 150 feet trying to stop on black ice from 15 mph using dedicated winter tires (Firestone Winterfire -- very good, inexpensive tire). So nothing is perfect -- no improvement in equipment can help you if there's very little friction between your tires and the road. Well, except maybe retro-rockets...any idea when we can expect those Alex??? LOL
Question for you: do all ABS systems (to your knowledge) dump and then build-up pressure until just under lockup, or are there some that continually adjust to wheel lockup?
Just curious...I haven't done much research recently -- used to read everything about the industry back in the 80's.
Just to re-enforce what someone said before: Regardless of equipment (caliper size, # of pots, rotor diameter, etc.), the most important link is between the brakes and the road -- namely, your tires.
I've personally gone 150 feet trying to stop on black ice from 15 mph using dedicated winter tires (Firestone Winterfire -- very good, inexpensive tire). So nothing is perfect -- no improvement in equipment can help you if there's very little friction between your tires and the road. Well, except maybe retro-rockets...any idea when we can expect those Alex??? LOL
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Korey Chaos
Member
Yeah ABS isnt worth a damn.
AlaskaP5 said:
Ditto for me. I rarely have the ABS kick in, and when it does, it is always under conditions that it should (i.e. impending lock up). I am one of those guys that wishes ABS would wait a little longer and let me get the maximum threshold braking, but the P5 is one heck of a lot better than the 96 Blazer I used to have for letting me get stopped without the ABS kicking in.
If the ABS is always coming on, you are stopping too hard for the conditions, or you have the wrong (or worn) tires on. I find that the stock Dunlops on the P5s are quite good in cold conditions (hard pack snow, etc.), but no better than a summer tire when conditions are slushy (right around freezing).
Nice post Alex. Thanks for the truely informed description.
93blackfd said:This is a very interesting discussion for me to read. I develop ABS, TCS and ESP for a major supplier, unfortunately not for the Protege
1. It will take ABS longer to stop on "deformable" surfaces like gravel or deep snow, the snowplow or wedge description is right on the money. Most factory specs are 120% of locked wheel stops on snow or gravel. The difference is that you can steer.
2. I know many good drivers can "beat" the ABS when trying, and certainly on the track. However, I doubt any of us could do it when a 4 year old jumps out in front of you, not even Schumacher. My race car has no ABS and at work I do probably 10 to 100 ABS -vs- non ABS stops a day and I still just mash the pedal when there's an emergency on the road.
3. Our mantra is "stability, steerability, stopping" meanting #1 don't spin the car, #2 let the driver steer, and #3 get it stopped. This is the direction from the OEM's and this is why you can beat it. Trust me, if we just had to drop anchor and not worry about controllability it would beat the best drivers.
4. No, you can't perform the perfect "Scandanavian flick" with ABS on, if so your gradma might accidently use those inputs and end up backwards. If you want to rally the car just pull the fuse.
A tip for improving the ABS performance is to still use your driving skill to more gently "load up" the brakes. If you wallop the pedal before weight can tranfer forward we have to dump pressure to keep the wheel from dropping right to lock. If you gradually apply pressure like you don't have ABS until you feel the car "set" and then push into ABS we will "conrol" the pressure rather than dump and recover.
Happy ABSing
Alex
MidnightDreamer
Member
Hehehe, so the moral of the story is that no form of ABS can take the place of a competent driver... (and his hardcore winter tires) What a happy ending....
Wow, someone is on their game
Yes, the newer systems do more "slip control" rather than the pulse train described earlier. Most of these systems are on Stability Control equipped vehicles because they have some extra sensors that make it possible (pressure sensor, most importantly).Alex
...and just to compare (off topic, eh?):
The F-16 ABS is quad redundant and uses speed sensors to measure change in (AC or DC depending on the year/model
)signal from a refence source (usually which ever sensor has the highest output). Brake pressure is modulated until one or both wheels spin up again to reference signal strength. The system cuts out at ~10 knots or less and can be over-ridden to 'rapidly pulse the brakes' or even shut it off entirely...
We don't trust the 'stick-actuator' ['pilot' to foot-stomp/dance and slow/stop a landing jet.
What is amazing (to me) is that this was designed/delivered in the ealry seventies...
The F-16 ABS is quad redundant and uses speed sensors to measure change in (AC or DC depending on the year/model
)signal from a refence source (usually which ever sensor has the highest output). Brake pressure is modulated until one or both wheels spin up again to reference signal strength. The system cuts out at ~10 knots or less and can be over-ridden to 'rapidly pulse the brakes' or even shut it off entirely...We don't trust the 'stick-actuator' ['pilot'
to foot-stomp/dance and slow/stop a landing jet.What is amazing (to me) is that this was designed/delivered in the ealry seventies...
mazdaspeed45
Member
- :
- 2002 PROTEGE ES 2.0GT
I will have to say im neutral about ABS. There has been times that I wish it was not there and Times im glad its there. Its give or take.. This upcoming summer (not for a while yet) I am planing on driving without ABS, (autoX)
. I can also say thanks to ABS(piss) for a little rear end bump that I had.. (trust me I had alot of time to try and stop.)..
I think before hating ABS you need to consider conditions.:
Speed
Weather
Tires
Skill
Chris
. I can also say thanks to ABS(piss) for a little rear end bump that I had.. (trust me I had alot of time to try and stop.)..I think before hating ABS you need to consider conditions.:
Speed
Weather
Tires
Skill
Chris
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P-Funk: Yeah...jet airliners have had ABS for a while (70's, like you said), I'm surprised it took the auto industry so long to adapt.
Alex : Thanks for the compliment, I'm a tinker and like to understand as much as possible about my stuff. My pre-P5 car was a `01 Focus with the stability control -- pretty cool system. But the trac. control was WAAAAY to aggressive. It would *severely* cut the throttle when the wheels slipped -- my seatbelt would lock to keep me from smacking the steering wheel.
Chris: Most people forget that the most important element is their tires -- I'm going through the winter with the factory Dunlops, but I'm also driving very conservatively. But the driver is the most important factor, by far... To quote Albert Einstein, "There are two things that are limitless, the universe and human stupidity. And I'm not too sure about the former." LOL
I will never buy a car without ABS, because it has saved my stupid ass too many times. Now I know better and give myself a nice cushion, but (as has been said before) you have to figure the "dumb ass" factor of other drivers.
Alex : Thanks for the compliment, I'm a tinker and like to understand as much as possible about my stuff. My pre-P5 car was a `01 Focus with the stability control -- pretty cool system. But the trac. control was WAAAAY to aggressive. It would *severely* cut the throttle when the wheels slipped -- my seatbelt would lock to keep me from smacking the steering wheel.
Chris: Most people forget that the most important element is their tires -- I'm going through the winter with the factory Dunlops, but I'm also driving very conservatively. But the driver is the most important factor, by far... To quote Albert Einstein, "There are two things that are limitless, the universe and human stupidity. And I'm not too sure about the former." LOL
I will never buy a car without ABS, because it has saved my stupid ass too many times. Now I know better and give myself a nice cushion, but (as has been said before) you have to figure the "dumb ass" factor of other drivers.
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Today I found an empty parking lot covered by a couple inches of snow so I could feel out the P5's limits on stock tires. I was surprised to find that while braking distances were lengthy, the car was extremely controllable with the pedal to the floor and the optional ABS fully engaged. I could easily steer the car exactly where I wanted to. Even when I spun the wheel further than I knew I should the rear end refused to whip around. In fact, the only way I could provoke the car to spin was by using the hand brake. Even then, as soon as I let up on the brake the car quickly straightened out. The car was amazingly easy to control.
