New cross-Drill design
- Thread starter BlueDevil NYC
- Start date
The convoluted rotor has been used on dirt bikes for years. It helps clean the pads during off road use. I've seen them more and more in off road automotive and street bike use too. They work. Aluminum floating hats are a nice touch, but I never heard of Tornado calipers. At those prices I'd get Stoptech brakes first. They have a Protege kit for under $1700, that is claimed to be ballanced for the stock rear brakes with only braided lines.
Anybody using the Stoptech setup?
Anybody using the Stoptech setup?
BigBlue said:
Thanks for the correction...I'll put that on my list of things to learn how to do better then.
Hold on just one second....
While heel toe downshifting(The technique of blipping the throttle while braking and before realeasing the clutch when you are slowing down) is a great thing to master for high performance driving AND as a way to help save your transmission from wear, it is NOT the way to slow down a car! That is why you have brakes. Brake pads get changed more often than clutches because brake pads wear faster because of the material they are made out of. And that's the way it should be. You don't want to have to go in for a new clutch every year or less, or worse some more extensive trasmission work. That would be some major $$$. Settle for getting brake pads more often. They are way cheaper to replace. If you are doing track days I can tell you that the brake pad wear you are experiencing is normal if you are using stock brake pads. Additionally, if you are using the regular brake fluid you aren't helpling the situation AND if you have done a day or two of good hard track days your rotors are probably warped by now. Lucky for you there are ways to combat this without spending $3k, trashing your transmission or looking like a complete retard with flower shaped rotors!
1) If those rotors are warped, get some new ones from Mazda. They're cheap. Especially if you qualify to be part of the Mazda Comp program (If you autocross, you can do this). You'll know they're warped if under hard braking you feel a shudder.
2) Change your brake fluid. The Ford(Motorcraft) High Performance Brake Fluid will do the job and it's cheap at $3 per bottle at the Ford dealership. But make sure you bleed the brakes a little more often than you normally would because this stuff doesn't reject moisture as good as regular old brake fluid. It does, however, have a higher boiling point which is great if you are really working the brakes at track days and such because the fluid will not boil as easily causing the whole sytem to go south.
3) Change to high performance brake pads. I have been using Hawk HPS pads on the front and stocks on the rear and they are working great for track, autocross and street use. They last WAY longer and grip better. They also help keep the heat down so that I'm not boiling the fluid as easy. I went to a track day and wore my stock pads down from a little over half to useless in that one day! Stock is fine for the back but don't use them in the front.
The Hawk HPS pads need a littl bit of heat in them to get to their best grip so you'll have to drive for a few minutes before they are just right, bu they are tons better than stock. I am going to switch to the Hawk Blues if and when these HPS' wear out. They are supposed to be even better and they warm up quicker than the HPS. NOTE: I've been told that the Hawk pads are tough on rotor wear but I haven't noticed anything horrible yet myself. Nor have I noticed anything horrible on the Spec Miata racecars I work on that use Hawk Blues.
4) Switching to a stainless steel braided brake line can also improve your brake feel as well. I haven't done this because it takes me out of the stock class for autocross. But I've felt the difference in Miatas and it's better.
If you are looking for better braking follow the above advice first before you go through spending all that money and you'll probably find that you'll be more than satisfied with your braking performance. Also, use heel toe downshifting for what it was meant for, giving you a way to smoothly downshift while braking so that you can smoothly transition to a lower gear without upsetting the vehicle when entering a corner and giving you the proper gear for exiting the corner all in one smooth motion. Also, it saves the transmission because you are doing the work for the syncros and the downshift can be made quicker and smoother because you can do the job of the syncros quicker this way.
Sorry for the long post. Just didn't want to see you get misguided...
Protege01MP3
Member
That is GREAT information... especially for someone in the position I'm in... front rotors are warped... twice now... and this time around my rear rotors are TOTALLED because i was broke for a long time and couldnt affor pads.... at all... and when my pads were GONE i decided ****.. i have to scrape SOMETHING together.. so i ordered pads from mazda.. took forever.. and now my rotors are all scraped up from no pad material on the pad itself... they are beyond resurfacing..
i always told myself.. if im ever gonna change anything.. dont just go spend money on the stock parts because theyre cheaper.. hold out.. like an example is this case... could have just saved for a while more (im working again) and gotten a brake upgrade.. but i just decided to go for new pads and rotors all the way around... stock parts... anyway.. mazda is lagging on the rear rotors.. its been three weeks.. they keep telling me next week next week...
anyway.. my question for you is: Is there any other advice you can give on improving brake performance w/ stock calipers and rotors? I'll replace the factory pads w/ aftermarket within the next year or so at the most.. but my main concern is warping... ive had the rotors in the front replaced for warping once already and they are warped again... this seems to be a re-occuring problem.. possibly because i am pretty demanding on my brakes... but if you have any suggestions on helping prevent warping... other than dont brake so much (lol) let me know
and how comparable is the performance of the upgrades you just listed to the performance of a mildly priced mid range brake upgrade? I dont need a full on upgraded big brake system.. but i do need some more performance wherever i can get it
Protege01MP3 said:
Like I said above, better pads and better brake fluid. I haven't warped my rotors(they're stock) since I've been using the Hawks and the Ford High Perf. brake fluid and bleeding the system on a regular basis, which is usually after I do a major track day or after a couple autocrosses.
Protege01MP3 said:
I didn't necessarily think the stock system was that bad at stopping the car. It didn't take much to lock the wheels in the first place which indicates that the system is powerful enough to stop the car from most any speed. Of course it could always be better and under heavy braking they would get over hot and warp the rotors. The better fluid and pads help to keep this from happening and the pads definitely grip better than the stock pads. I would call this a mildly priced mid range brake upgrade.
I'm betting that uprgrading to the stainless steel would make a big difference as well and be mildly priced. Basically. I'm saying do these things first before you dump the money on the big brake stuff. Especially if you are really looking for pure performance upgrades and not just looks. I'm sure that a larger rotor and a more efficient caliper would be better than stock, but I think that a lot more performance could be gained without dumping major cash on that stuff. Probably better to do the brakes like I've outlined here and spend the money you save on something like a turbo so you would have a real reason to need better braking.
Protege01MP3
Member
excellent advice... I'm going to take all of this into careful consideration...
one more question
from what i gathered above... the reason rotors warp is because of the pads/rotors/fluid getting hot... is this correct?? if so... does it happen because the fluid boils and warps the rotors? or is it because the rotors get to a certain temperature and then begin to warp?
I only have a very basic knowledge of braking systems... I can remove and install rotors calipers and pads... but thats about it.. i dont know the specifics of any of it... thanx for all the info
peace
one more question
from what i gathered above... the reason rotors warp is because of the pads/rotors/fluid getting hot... is this correct?? if so... does it happen because the fluid boils and warps the rotors? or is it because the rotors get to a certain temperature and then begin to warp?
I only have a very basic knowledge of braking systems... I can remove and install rotors calipers and pads... but thats about it.. i dont know the specifics of any of it... thanx for all the info
peace
7
70
cfbjr said:
Like I said above, better pads and better brake fluid. I haven't warped my rotors(they're stock) since I've been using the Hawks and the Ford High Perf. brake fluid and bleeding the system on a regular basis, which is usually after I do a major track day or after a couple autocrosses.
I didn't necessarily think the stock system was that bad at stopping the car. It didn't take much to lock the wheels in the first place which indicates that the system is powerful enough to stop the car from most any speed. Of course it could always be better and under heavy braking they would get over hot and warp the rotors. The better fluid and pads help to keep this from happening and the pads definitely grip better than the stock pads. I would call this a mildly priced mid range brake upgrade.
I'm betting that uprgrading to the stainless steel would make a big difference as well and be mildly priced. Basically. I'm saying do these things first before you dump the money on the big brake stuff. Especially if you are really looking for pure performance upgrades and not just looks. I'm sure that a larger rotor and a more efficient caliper would be better than stock, but I think that a lot more performance could be gained without dumping major cash on that stuff. Probably better to do the brakes like I've outlined here and spend the money you save on something like a turbo so you would have a real reason to need better braking.
Why does this advise sound familiar?? Oh yeah, becuase I said that early. Tires make the biggest difference, then pad compostion. Steel braided lines help pedal feel, not necessarily performance.
StuttersC said:
Wouldn't better pedal feel be better performance? Tires will improve braking performance. But they will not get rid of rotors warping or keep brake fade from happening.
Actually, your advice was to downshift and use the tranny to slow the car down. That's what prompted me to chime in.
Last edited:
uhhh I beg to differ brake lines help out performance alot not just pedal feel. Braking is actually a perfect balance of alot of things, tires, pads rotors and lines. So just because you have big rotors doesn't mean you'll stop faster. And the same just because you put better fluid in. All of these factors affect the brakes in different ways. I would say that better pads will give you the most noticable difference and then the brake lines, then fluid, and then rotors. As far as tires go, well that just goes without saying( Comeon it's the only part of the car that actually touches the ground so you do the math) I had big brake upgrades on 2 of my previous cars and would have to say that from stock systems there is alot to be gained or improved upon especially if you make the car faster than stock. On my M3 I had a Korman big brake kit front and rear with stainless lines and I think Dot 4 or 5 can't remember. That thing would stop so hard and so fast it would give you a heart attack. Compared to stock of course. I didn't have cross drilled or slotted rotors just larger and vented. Let's just say you can definately tell a difference by doing these mods. You don't have to go all out though like I did on that car and I didn't even do the top kit. One important key to remember as well is that the weather and road conditions are going to affect your brakes as well. Not saying there is a huge change but you would notice a difference between driiving hard in 100 degree vs 50 degree weather.
As far as rotors warping. There are a number of causes. one being when the rotors are hot and they get quicly cooled either from driving through a puddle or washing your car(My roommate warped 2 full sets of rotors doing this as he is a delivery driver and insists on keeping his car clean during the day) they can also warp due to too much heat. they reach a certain temp and then they get warped.
The boiling point of the fluid really has nothing to do with the rotors getting warped. other than when the fluid boils you loose your brakes effectiveness and stopping power. I honestly can't recall ever hearing that the lines or fluid caused a rotor to warp. Well this post is getting long so if you have anymore questions just ask and as you can see you should get several responses back.
As far as rotors warping. There are a number of causes. one being when the rotors are hot and they get quicly cooled either from driving through a puddle or washing your car(My roommate warped 2 full sets of rotors doing this as he is a delivery driver and insists on keeping his car clean during the day) they can also warp due to too much heat. they reach a certain temp and then they get warped.
The boiling point of the fluid really has nothing to do with the rotors getting warped. other than when the fluid boils you loose your brakes effectiveness and stopping power. I honestly can't recall ever hearing that the lines or fluid caused a rotor to warp. Well this post is getting long so if you have anymore questions just ask and as you can see you should get several responses back.
Protege01MP3 said:excellent advice... I'm going to take all of this into careful consideration...
one more question
from what i gathered above... the reason rotors warp is because of the pads/rotors/fluid getting hot... is this correct?? if so... does it happen because the fluid boils and warps the rotors? or is it because the rotors get to a certain temperature and then begin to warp?
I only have a very basic knowledge of braking systems... I can remove and install rotors calipers and pads... but thats about it.. i dont know the specifics of any of it... thanx for all the info
peace
Thr rotors warp because they get hot. They get hot because the pads get hot and there's the whole friction thing going on between the pad and rotor. The rotors absorb the heat from the pads the pads absorb heat from the calipers. The fluid is there to provide hydraulic pressure as well as hep cool the caliper. When the fluid boils it loses its hydraulic properties because air gets introduced in the system and it no longer cools the caliper properly. Everything gets hotter and hotter until the rotors warp. Another thing that causes the warpage is if the rotors are really hot, like after a track session, and you set the parking brake. As the rotors cool down the part where the pads are touching the rotor will not cool down at the same rate causing the rotor to warp.
FuNwaGoN said:
M3's have amazing brakes to begin with. I couldn't imagine with a full big brake upgrade. But that's a car that has some horsepower to tame. Unlike the Protege. I think we can get by just fine w/o the big brake stuff. Now if you had a turbo or something, maybe it would start to make sense to go for something more elaborate. Any turbo guys out there that have an opinion on brakes after the turbo is installed? Are the stock brakes enough to slow you down from higher speeds?
Protege01MP3
Member
hehe.. its funny how this post started out talkin about the flower rotors.. and turned into braking 101 for me thanx guys... i REALLY appreciate all the info your giving me and I think it will help me make better decisions as to what im gonna do along the lines of brakes in the coming months... appreciate all the help.. and im sure i have a few more questions that just havent come up yet
thanx guys... i REALLY appreciate all the info your giving me and I think it will help me make better decisions as to what im gonna do along the lines of brakes in the coming months... appreciate all the help.. and im sure i have a few more questions that just havent come up yet
7
70
cfbjr said:
I could have sworn I put in later that tires, then pads, then lines would make for better braking.
And I put up a link to an article on GRM's website. Was that this thread or someplace else??
Oh boy, I'm getting lost...
StuttersC said:
I could have sworn I put in later that tires, then pads, then lines would make for better braking.
And I put up a link to an article on GRM's website. Was that this thread or someplace else??
Oh boy, I'm getting lost...
yep, you should have gotten on the brakes a little sooner before you made that turn!
I checked the thread and didn't see anything like that here.
Protege01MP3
Member
StuttersC said:
I could have sworn I put in later that tires, then pads, then lines would make for better braking.
And I put up a link to an article on GRM's website. Was that this thread or someplace else??
Oh boy, I'm getting lost...
pass whatever your smokin over this way!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!(stoned) (smoke) (stoned)
7
70
Protege01MP3 said:
That's easy enough. It's called night shift, with little or no sleep. You don't know what day it is, and you have no clue as to what is going any more. I haven't gotten my mail for about a week and I have no idea why there is a pile of newspapers still in the plastic in my living room.
