Need advice. Going nuts, seriously rough idle on start

[wolleymp5]

Hi guys newbie here.
I have a huge problem with my MP5 '02 ~107k mi. I changed the clutch, master & slaves cylinders a couple months ago. A while after the car started idling rough and subsequently when i would turn it on it would go first to about 1000 revs and then start going abruptly from 200rpm to 700 to 1000 to 2000 to 3000 in no particular order and then if I pressed the gas a couple times it would level out at 750 and do some of the up and down revs while on red lights. This happened before the clutch change but was very minimal. The problem went from something very very minimal to the severe rev changes and not staying on within a week.

So here's what has been changed so far:

• MAF --- from advanced (was wrongfully my first idea)
• valve cover gasket (not sure if that's the name) -- (was leaking oil onto the 1 or 2 sparkplugs, done by mechanic)
• New spark plugs, wires and plugs (done by mechanic as well and car actually stayed on but still did the rough idling on start w/o the severe rpm fluctuation)
• Throttle body and EGR cleaned by mechanic as well
• Air hoses checked by mechanic for leaks
• New Air Filter (seemed to help the rough start and make it more stable but still no cigar)
• Lastly new ignition coils ( from advanced autoparts)

My mechanic didn't change the coils b/c i did not want to get ***** on the price. He simply told me to take it drive it and wait till it gave me a CEL and take it back in to **** me some more.

I drove it and got a CEL with in a day. It was P0304. Cleared it out to see if it repeated, and a day later got P0300. I tried a fuel injector cleaner thinking that can be it and was thinking of taking it to get a real fuel injector cleaning.

I'm seriously running out of options I would really appreciate some help as i am slowly going broke.

 

[Spiced MSP]

any of the P0300 codes is a misfire, 300 random misfire, 301 cylinder one, 302, cylinder two and so forth. If the plugs and wires have been replaced already. Definitely change the coil packs. Fixes the problem most of the time. You can change them yourself instead of throwing more money at a shop. Just disconnect both harness connectors from both coil packs, grab a ratchet with I believe a 10mm socket and loosen the four bolts holding the packs on the valve cover and just pull the coil packs out. You will also have to pull the leads off of the side of the packs that are going to the other ignition wires and that's it. Then just do everything in reverse on re install.

 

[wolleymp5]

Thanks for the advice but I just changed them today. The problem actually got worse. I was able to drive the car for a short test run parked it and tried turning off and on and the idle problem was worse than before the coil change. I used 'intermotor' brand from advanced autoparts i'm not sure if the quality could cause the problem to be worse.

I did a second test run when the car was cold hoping to do a long drive and see if it gave a CEL but the loss of power was a lot worse and i was unable to even pull out of my parking. Now it levels itself out when idle but when i try to pull out on first gear it will sound like its misfired and have very little power. Also smelled a strong fuel fumes when this happened so I am a bit concerned that the catalyzer can get screwed up.

I'm considering putting the old coils back on tomorrow see how it goes. I was wondering if this is one of those parts which you need a real good quality part or from the manufacturer considering the dealership part is about ~160 to 180$ for one coil.

 

[Spiced MSP]

what brand of plugs are you using? Try resetting the ECU before swapping back to old coils. Clean the MAF with MAF spray. Try seafoaming the car. Check for vacuum leaks

 

[wolleymp5]

I believe they are NGK mechanic changed them. The MAF I changed so i wouldn't expect it to be dirty. Seafoming might seem like a good idea but i'm not too confident in putting all that into the engine which already struggles and then have it start. I will look into how to check for air leaks but all the computer codes haven't pointed to any.

I usually reset the CEL's by doing negative battery borne disconnected and pressing break for about a minute. It clears the CEL but is it enough to reset the computer ?

 

[wolleymp5]

well didn't even get a chance to sea foam it. I replaced coil for the cylinders 3/4 with one of the old ones and left a new one on cylinder 1/2. The car started working a lot better. I drove it around for about 30 miles and it did great. However after i left it sitting for about 2 hrs the problem came back but at least the car would turn on.

I drove it another 15-20 miles last night and then getting on the expressway my belts completely snapped. The AC and Alternator belts completely gone!!!. Of course car overheated, steering wheel hard, AC was not cooling, needle on temp gauge went to the top, battery light came on, and my engine was pretty hot but no steam came out. Went to nearest exit and parked and got it towed home. The car was dropping all the coolant in a kinda big drip form, and i think it may have blown a hose, hopefully nothing in the engine.

Now i'm curious to know if they could have anything to do with the shaking/misfire/ severe idling problem the car already had??? I don't wanna put new belts and have them snap again. One of the belts was not too old, i believe the alternator belt was 3 yrs old with maybe 30K miles on it....

Also is it normal for both belts to break off??

Thanks.

 

[CheeseHelmet]

Jeez, you've been having some bad luck with this car...

The symptoms point to a bad EGR valve, change it and your idle should be nice and smooth. I know you said your mechanic "cleaned it", but at some point the valve rusts so bad that it'll get stuck. Yours sounds like it's stuck open because of the multiple random misfire DTC (P0300).

Regarding the belts, when one snaps it's not too uncommon for it to take the other one with it. When you replace them, make sure to use quality parts! Believe it or not, the dealer doesn't charge an outrageous amount for the belts.

 

[planefreak]

That's strange for belts going. Its not as common as it used to be.

+1 on the belts. Go with Gates or another rep. brand. Mine used to squeal on start up until replaced with gates.

Also, check to make sure that the idlers/pulleys or anything the belt runs on isn't frozen. That could easily kill a belt.

And just an fyi, since you changed the clutch (ie: removed tranny) check all wiring. I know that there are a lot of wire holders that are connected to the tranny, and some of those can be very annoying.
For instance, the O2 sensors only get checked when the engine is warm, the car is moving between 25 and 70 and the engine is doing 2 to 4k, and this is done twice and if failed your check engine will light.

Just throwing it out there.

 

[DarkAngel]

There is a great Diagnostic check list in the Service Manual in section/page 01-03B-23 under Symtom: Troubleshooting {Engine Control System(FS)

NO.8 ENGINE RUNS ROUGH/ROLLING IDLE [FS]

 

[wolleymp5]

Thanks guys i will look into all this. I had been eyeing the EGR valve cleaning how to on the forum, so i'll have the mechanic change the belts and then i'll take out the EGR to clean/change once the belts are completed (just do it myself b/c of money) and i was also thinking of changing the PCV valve.

CheeseHelmet: how much have you been quoted before for belts at the dealer?

I love the car, have never moded it and it has been reliable for 5 years but man now its just one thing after another. I owned an MX-6 before this one and that car only broke down in 3 things, A/C, belts, alternator never ever gave me any other problems and was good til 175K miles. After this whole ordeal i might just start looking for another car.

THanks for the advice. I'll report back.

 

[CheeseHelmet]

Thanks guys i will look into all this. I had been eyeing the EGR valve cleaning how to on the forum, so i'll have the mechanic change the belts and then i'll take out the EGR to clean/change once the belts are completed (just do it myself b/c of money) and i was also thinking of changing the PCV valve.

CheeseHelmet: how much have you been quoted before for belts at the dealer?

Don't bother trying to clean the EGR, it's clearly finished. You'll be of the same opinion when you bust-up your hands trying to remove it; it's a job that's not fun to do more than once...

I bought my belts from the dealer, I changed them myself. I think they were $20 each, but like planefreak said, you should be able to find high-quality aftermarket ones (Gates, Goodyear, etc) for the same price or less. If you think you can tackle the EGR yourself, I think you could also manage changing the belts

 

[Jordysoso]

No offense but stop going to the mechanic. Most of them are dirt bags and over charge you for work they didn't do. Start working on it yourself. There is so much help on these forums if you're in a bind we will help. You cab make sure everything is done right and save yourself some money by working on it yourself. Also you'll get a lot better feel for how your car works.

 

[wolleymp5]

yeah, i do agree with you guys. The mech said the computer gave an error code for the IACV while he turned it on after the belts and if i wanted it changed. I think i will just buy the EGR online and the IACV online but try the egr first since the IACV is about 210$ and EGR 100$ give or take. I like going to the mech because it saves me time, i know what you all think but i'm finishing up my engineering degree and working as well and these summer classes can be brutal if i spend all my time thinking of the car.

Since the mechanic is obviously unable to find out the problem except by throwing money and parts to it, then i may as well fix it myself and save on labor that's why I begun doing this myself. I'm just hoping the EGR and IACV are the culprits and i can finally have a reliable car once again.

 

[wolleymp5]

ok i did some searches on the forum and found this:

1)Canadian EGR In a thread which was for mp5's it said this one was good, however i see in the page that its for a regular protege and not mp5 don't know if the part fits?? 113$

2) Canadian EGR under the protege5 search comes up different and at 167$

3) Rock auto EGR for 84$ i assume its not canadian and another one which is 128

I'm thinking of just going for the 84$ one. Which do you guys think is the best option?

 

[CheeseHelmet]

ok i did some searches on the forum and found this:

1)Canadian EGR In a thread which was for mp5's it said this one was good, however i see in the page that its for a regular protege and not mp5 don't know if the part fits?? 113$

2) Canadian EGR under the protege5 search comes up different and at 167$

3) Rock auto EGR for 84$ i assume its not canadian and another one which is 128

I'm thinking of just going for the 84$ one. Which do you guys think is the best option?

The "Canadian" Valve is your best option, if you buy one of those it will probably outlast the car. It's a bit more of a pain to install but at least you know you'll never have to mess with that s*** again.

 

[wolleymp5]

• EGR- got EGR from rockauto (~$93 shipped). I may keep the car for only 2 more years & the other EGR seemed like more of a head ache.
  
• BELTS - done by mech (already had the car there by the time I posted)
  
• IACV CEL- Mech got this error, couldn't find used part so only cleaned it car improved for about 2 days still rough idling but now only on cold start up. Improved engine performance notably. Started dying on start up again after 2 days.
  
• (bow) SEAFOAM - caved and did seafoam (thanks spiced MSP) and i'm in love with it. Car went from dying to turning on and improved the rough idle tremendously. Now its idling rough slightly but still jumps sometimes to 1200-1500 rpm on cold start up but once i drive it it goes down to steady 750 when idle which is great. Also felt more power and improved acceleration, smoother ride, and better sound from muffler. I think i will do it again tomorrow to see if it helps more.
  (I put it only in the gas tank, and the brake booster vacuum hose will do the oil one when problem is solved)
  

Now i'm just waiting for EGR and will see once installed if that clears up the problem entirely. I will keep updating (dance)(2thumbs)(cabpatch)

 

[wolleymp5]

Got the EGR pretty fast. Ordered Friday morning and got it today. I'll attempt installing it later in the week, never thought i'd end up enjoying some of this mechanic work lol.

 

[CheeseHelmet]

Got the EGR pretty fast. Ordered Friday morning and got it today. I'll attempt installing it later in the week, never thought i'd end up enjoying some of this mechanic work lol.

You'll be regretting that

Wear gloves if you can, and give yourself some time to figure-out how to get it loose. I'd recommend using the lowest profile 1/4" ratchet you can find, you can do it with a spanner, but it's more of a pain.

 

[Spiced MSP]

I can take mine off with a ratchet and socket blindly in well under a minute. Not bragging by any means, but it is a fairly quick and easy task.

 

[wolleymp5]

hmmm can you recommend a 1/4" ratchet? i found this one but its kinda pricey http://www.sears.com/shc/s/p_10153_12605_00925479000P