msp head

[racerx43269]

SO i have been trying to find a solution for aftermarket ignition... and i came accross some things that are interesting.... the ford probe... 4 cyc. version is the same as our engine right?? fs9....? IF so.... what year would i look for to do a head swap.. because i want a distributor.. so i can run my damn msd ignition.. there should be a gain in hp or atleast tunability? having a 2 step, as well as boost retard and other features might be something i want to look into and i realize that there are many people that have tried and failed... my self being one of them... but there has to be failed information i can use to win.. ya know?

 

[TheMAN]

why do you want a disty? there's less dwell time and therefore less spark voltage... timing advance control is also way less

the probe head is also a downgrade from yours because it has smaller intake ports!

just install a good EMS system to play with the timing if you really want to... but there's no point! just install an MP3 ECU and a J&S and be done with it!


just because you can physically tinker with it, doesn't mean its better
it's like installing a carburetor when fuel injection offers much better efficiency and power through PRECISE computer control

 

[JDM Sam]

You can run upgraded coils if you switch to a Haltech E6X or better. Coils are better than the traditional distributor thus why all OEM's are switching to direct fire coils.

 

[unnatural4bang]

I have a question along the same lines. I have a ford probe 4 cyl. knowing that the head from your cars swap to ours and is a upgrade. I dont want to switch to coil packs. so my question is does that plug where the ditsy use to be have the ability to be removed and then replaced when im ready to convert over to coil pack? or is it a solid cast?

 

[cityracer]

the probe head is also a downgrade from yours because it has smaller intake ports!

facts please. In my 12 years of tuning a ford probe 2.0. This is the craziest thing I thing I have heard about the probe model fs engines.

Also you say our intake manifolds are restrictive. However from personal experience they are absolutely huge compared to the protege manis, and we don't even have the vics system you guys have packed in there. It's been an ongoing joke with me for years how cute and tiny the protege mani's are... I understand the whole long runner vs short runner thing. However Mazda must have planned on throwing over 60psi of boost at the probe mani's if their size is all in the casting wall thickness. lol

 

[unnatural4bang]

facts please. In my 12 years of tuning a ford probe 2.0. This is the craziest thing I thing I have heard about the probe model fs engines.

Also you say our intake manifolds are restrictive. However from personal experience they are absolutely huge compared to the protege manis, and we don't even have the vics system you guys have packed in there. It's been an ongoing joke with me for years how cute and tiny the protege mani's are... I understand the whole long runner vs short runner thing. However Mazda must have planned on throwing over 60psi of boost at the probe mani's if their size is all in the casting wall thickness. lol

Yea!!...........lol

 

[cityracer]

one last thought on the probe specific intake manifold. the 93-94 model FS probes received a different intake mani then the 95+ fsde engines. The 93-94 manifolds are divorced runners which is the biggest visual difference. The manifold on the 95+ fsde probes looks incredibly similar to the 626 manifold that the protege guys switch to for a performance gain.

No one has measured the specs on the probe/mx6 specific intake manifolds. It would be incorrect to state that the probe manifolds are restrictive until facts are backing that statement up.

The fact is that the performance upgrade 626 mani is just an variance of the probe mani. They are both long runner manifold styles with slightly different port dimensions. Then for the protege's, the mani was completely changed to a short runner large port design with internal vics.

I don't want to argue semantics on Mazda's engine specifics. I just needed to clear the air on some statements about the probe specific fs engine which is not all the different at all from the fsde.

 

[TheMAN]

facts please. In my 12 years of tuning a ford probe 2.0. This is the craziest thing I thing I have heard about the probe model fs engines.
<snip>

in the 12 years you've been tuning your probe, you've been hanging out with FORD guys and on probetalk... sheltered from mazda guys who had extensive knowledge and connections WITH mazda... just because you haven't heard of it, doesn't mean it's not true

you didn't know that forged cranks in FS-DEs do exist until recently, is there anything more I need to say about you being "under a rock"? Don't get me wrong, I'm not blaming you or anyone else for the lack of detailed knowledge... you just weren't exposed to it... ignorance can be forgiven, arrogance can't

Also you say our intake manifolds are restrictive. However from personal experience they are absolutely huge compared to the protege manis, and we don't even have the vics system you guys have packed in there. It's been an ongoing joke with me for years how cute and tiny the protege mani's are... I understand the whole long runner vs short runner thing. However Mazda must have planned on throwing over 60psi of boost at the probe mani's if their size is all in the casting wall thickness. lol

one last thought on the probe specific intake manifold. the 93-94 model FS probes received a different intake mani then the 95+ fsde engines. The 93-94 manifolds are divorced runners which is the biggest visual difference. The manifold on the 95+ fsde probes looks incredibly similar to the 626 manifold that the protege guys switch to for a performance gain.

No one has measured the specs on the probe/mx6 specific intake manifolds. It would be incorrect to state that the probe manifolds are restrictive until facts are backing that statement up.

The fact is that the performance upgrade 626 mani is just an variance of the probe mani. They are both long runner manifold styles with slightly different port dimensions. Then for the protege's, the mani was completely changed to a short runner large port design with internal vics.

I don't want to argue semantics on Mazda's engine specifics. I just needed to clear the air on some statements about the probe specific fs engine which is not all the different at all from the fsde.

PLEASE do NOT turn this thread into a pissing contest about intake manifolds... there's plenty of other threads on this board that had heated "discussions" about non-VICS vs VICS intake manifolds... I'm NOT in the mood to talk about it

this thread is about the heads and heads alone

the fact that you're so skeptical about all that I've said so far tells me a few things which may or may not be true about you since this is the internet and we don't know each other:
-you have an inferiority complex when someone who has a more powerful variant of the same factory engine talks "bad" about your own... all facts, not hearsay mind you
-you are completely skeptic about what I write and disregard the factual information and advice I've given you in the short history you've been here despite the fact that with the knowledge I've shared, the faq I wrote for the past 8 years, and my reputation for having ACCURATE information 99% of the time proves well enough that I don't bulls*** anyone.... the fact that you still call probe engines "FS" and protege engines "FS-DE"s says enough that you don't care what I have to say despite the fact that I already told you that they are ALL FS-DEs
-you call bulls*** on what you never heard of and call them out just like 5 year old school boys do... "prove it!"


so here is the only thing I'm going to spend my time on to "prove" to you... a scan off of the 2000 626 service highlights manual showing the performance improvements of the 2000+ engines and the differences from the older engines

I also have worked on a lot more mazdas than you have and I've seen the differences myself

there's a lot more I can dig out such as part catalog diagrams/part numbers, more manual pages, etc... but that's a waste of my time, and all that is going to do is humiliate you for not believing me

like I said... I'm NOT in the mood to talk about the intake manifolds nor waste more time over the head differences... so I'm just going to leave it at that before this thread gets any worst because your replies haven't been very nice either and have been provoking

 

[cityracer]

I am 31 years old, so please don't worry about humiliating me on anything. The time for me to react in such a way ended with my teens. LOL

Seriously though I could care less what people think of me, especially over the internet. After being totally disabled for 3 years, and having to deal with the embarrassment of all the reactions to my condition. Internet disputes over facts not known would be rather petty to get upset over don't you think?

Actually I had believed all the cranks were forged until my latest failure when my mechanic pointed out that both the crank in the failed engine and the one we are putting in the new engine were both cast. The casting marks are there for all to see, and I was proven wrong just a month ago. At that after building 5 seperate engines. So I don't know what to tell you buddy...

If you can show me information we have been missing for all this time on our platform. This is great news. It will be my pleasure to incorporate this new info to our platform. However I need facts not statements. The above information is exactly what I have been asking for. This is literally the first time I or any one on our platform has seen or heard of the intake ports being different on any version of the FSDE platform.

The specifics on our intake manifolds would be great too. I have read through all the posts on here, but honestly never saw a specific on our platforms manifolds. And like I said they are different then what I have seen discussed here. However it has been thrown at me several times that my mani was restrictive w/o specifics. I have not answered those comments until now.

Please keep any personal opinions about me out of these threads. I have yet to make any personal statements about you or any one else here. I have simply been trying to clear the air with information that is grossly different then what we have been working with for all this time. I am assuming you are an adult here, but could easily be wrong. If you are an adult past your 20s, then I am shocked to see you writing in your opinions of my mental status.

one last thing about me, and this one is personal. I am an intelligent man, and cannot take "statements" at face value with out information backing it up. If a statement comes at me that is grossly different then my research has shown, and it is not backed up. Then I as an adult cannot just take it at face value. I will ask for "facts", and there is nothing wrong with this request from me.

 

[Wagonbacker9]

I'm gonna post in here to say 2 things:
1) TheMAN has solid info, even when he is an ass about delivering it. I would tend to take what he has to say until documentation is provided of otherwise. to the city, you're asking him for his documentation, I'd like to see yours as well.

2) sub for further info on the topic. i'm curious.

 

[cityracer]

I think you are referring to me. What documentation would you like to see? We have many engine info threads on our forum about the FS platform. However none of them have any mention about larger intake ports. To our knowledge, the only differences are the cams, lifters, and ignition system. At that like I said above, we all were under the belief that our cranks were all forged. It is my personal discovery within this last month that I have two cranks that are cast not forged....

As to the intake manifolds. That is a continuing debate on our site too. LOL

 

[TheMAN]

I don't care what people think about me either....
but alright moving on now....

I posted in many discussions about our engines... you can search through my 5500+ posts if you want..... I've written other things on imazda

if you feel the need for "facts not statements", I'm sorry I can't help you because I don't have the time to scan every document I have on my bookshelf... you'll just have to believe what I say because most of the stuff I put on the FAQ are straight off the manuals and what I've learned from manuals, japanese pages, parts catalogs, etc... if you feel I'm not dedicated enough even though I own a dozen japanese protege shop manuals, I don't know what else to say


like I said, there's other threads here that thoroughly debated the intake manifold issue
but I'll end this post by saying these few simple facts:
-the rated power of the probe/mx-6 and 626 engines of any year has always been less than the protege 2.0
-the power/torque curve has always been favored towards the low/mid range on the probe/mx-6 and 626 engines... on the probe/mx-6 this was kept that way due to cost reasons despite the fact that it was marketed as a sports coupe... on the 626 its justified because its a big car and people who drive such cars favor smooth low end power
-the intake manifold runners and plenums are longer and smaller on the probe/mx-6 and 626 intake manifolds... it promotes intake velocity and low rpm which helps torque but sacrificing top end power... the fact that these engines fall on its face at high rpm says a lot compared to the protege engine that has VICS that flattens the powerband out
-the argument over the protege intake manifold not doing anything for top end is because of VTCS being restrictive for top end flow... the MP3 doesn't have it and neither does any of the overseas versions... people (including myself who have helped others) who has deleted this have effectively restored the intended power mazda engineers have intended and top end power was realized through this restoration mod... I have friends with MSPs that did this and their cars just haul a lot of ass at redline
-people say great things about the 626 intake because it added more torque... afterall, you FEEL torque, not power... let me put this in perspective... you can drive a chevy pickup that has s*** for power but it has massive torque... you can feel it shoving you into the seat as you mash the pedal when it goes green... however, the rx-8 or a civic has power but no torque... they're not slow cars... but you just can't FEEL it because there's no torque! the so-called top end increase is also due to the fact that there's no VTCS
-hard flow bench numbers that have been "proven" by the 626 intake camp doesn't work because VICS depends on dynamic flow rather than static numbers... VICS uses sound resonance tuning much like VRIS (but a cheaper watered down version) that helps increase intake velocity... the FS-ZE's "black box" is nothing more than a resonator that helps further improve this resonance tuning, which is why it works so well... it acts much like VRIS, which is why I can cruise at 1500rpm with a set of JDM cams and also make enough power to rip past the rev limiter
-if the 626 intake was really that much better, why did mazda not put them on proteges which was their platform to market the FS series motors as a sporty version? why did mazda spend tons of R&D money to develop and expensively manufacture the intake manifolds? I put a lot more faith in engineers with millions of dollars at their disposal than back yard engineers

anyhow, as I said... there's many other threads that hotly debated about this and I didn't care much to participate in them... I don't want to turn this thread into one of those either... what I wrote here are observations/facts that justifies my rationale over the intake manifolds

 

[TheMAN]

also... I'm more than happy to discuss the little details of every single different FS variant on the other thread in the protege performance section... that thread is appropriate because it shows all the different FS variants and the changes... I made a bunch of corrections to the original poster but I can get into more details then that!

in relevance to topic at hand in this thread, I'll also say that the the head gasket was improved in 2000 to a triple layer metal gasket (which has proven to hold 20psi just fine... my friend is running 24psi now on it and I'll just have to wait a year to declare that it holds)... it is the same gasket AND head used in the FS-ZE... the intake cam has the same lift as the FS-ZE intake cam, but the duration has been kept the same as the 98-99 intake cam for emissions reasons... half assed watered down s*** if you ask me, because even with the VICS intake manifold, the engine is suffocating at high rpm... the FS-ZE intake cam truely allows the engine to perform as intended (with the VICS intake)

 

[cityracer]

good posting.

This is again exactly what I was looking for. I don't need too many specifics, just a little description behind the statement for me to wrap my mind around.

I am actually of the same thought process on the intake manifolds. If you noticed in my failed engine thread, I said I like low end torque. That obviously is because I am running the probe spec engine. However I just don't like driving my car at high rpms at all, so the whole us spec cam/long runner mani thing lends itself nicely to this want. I also like the seat of the pants feel of torque. Even at 25psi on my GT30R, I would short shift to stay in my torque band not my hp band. lol

 

[TheMAN]

I know you don't like to drive at high rpms at all... but I'll say this again:
the gearing in either your tranny or my tranny are designed for the power band of 5000-6500rpm.. so short shifting just bogs the s*** out of the engine and that is not only slow, but also adds a lot of stress to the bottom end and transmission gears

I prefer a linear but flat powerband myself since it is well matched to the gear ratios of this tranny... which is why the mods have well matched this and the car is very fun and fast once you wind it up! there is still enough low end torque left in my engine because of the fact that the FS is a stroker... which is plenty for daily driving... the last thing you need is more torque for this engine because that sudden surge of torque/power at the low rpm is responsible for breaking trannys... it also doesn't do any good for traction

 

[unnatural4bang]

I thought this thread was about the head of you guys engines not the Intake Mani???...lol
does anyone know about the ditsy plug on your heads? is it removable?(uhm)

 

[racerx43269]

WOW!!!!!!

so since i have some probe guys reading this adn some MSP guys reading this... and i DONT have a HUGE amount of experience on this subject... the HEAD are the same.. both being FSDE, there is no larger porting or any crap like that.... a straight up swap... in plain english.. i could swap them out and go from electronicly controlled coil packs and use a dizy as well as an msd controller box for the ignition and have an actual UPGRADE???!!!?? im excited./.. and YES i realize taht some people just adore coil packs but... being that im a honda guy.. and i would prefer having a standalone ignition that has a 2 step and rev control and well... alot of features that i can use btu have to have a dizzy.. that is great... now IF some one has some information about say the msd DIS2 being COMPATIBLE with out cars for an ignition upgrade as well as spark and all that stuff... let me know..because i have had nothing but ignitioin issues with my car.. well ignition and fuel issues.. rather the car burning way to much fuel and blowing it out the ass, as well as constantly running pig rich.. even after a tune.. so yeah.. any ideas??

as far as the IM manifolds go... who gives a ****?vcts.. no vcts... eh... i just removed mine and went with a 626.,... so whats the big deal? if i had the money i would just get something custom made instead of bitching about who has a better manifold.. when they are both FORD () and dont go sayin mazdas arent fords.. because i swear to god there is a ford stamp on my ecu, which means that it is a ford hybrid or rather mazda ford combination, anyways.. ideas?? will a probe supercharger FIT in the same space on the intake side of the engine with out hitting the firewall? cause im thinkin bout taht way too...

 

[racerx43269]

BTW.... thank you for the comments on this topic...it is pretty great...

 

[Wagonbacker9]

a 2-step and FFS box is available for use with the MSP ignition. if its running rich after a tune, the tune sucks.

 

[unnatural4bang]

WOW!!!!!!

so since i have some probe guys reading this adn some MSP guys reading this... and i DONT have a HUGE amount of experience on this subject... the HEAD are the same.. both being FSDE, there is no larger porting or any crap like that.... a straight up swap... in plain english.. i could swap them out and go from electronicly controlled coil packs and use a dizy as well as an msd controller box for the ignition and have an actual UPGRADE???!!!?? im excited./.. and YES i realize taht some people just adore coil packs but... being that im a honda guy.. and i would prefer having a standalone ignition that has a 2 step and rev control and well... alot of features that i can use btu have to have a dizzy.. that is great... now IF some one has some information about say the msd DIS2 being COMPATIBLE with out cars for an ignition upgrade as well as spark and all that stuff... let me know..because i have had nothing but ignitioin issues with my car.. well ignition and fuel issues.. rather the car burning way to much fuel and blowing it out the ass, as well as constantly running pig rich.. even after a tune.. so yeah.. any ideas??

as far as the IM manifolds go... who gives a ****?vcts.. no vcts... eh... i just removed mine and went with a 626.,... so whats the big deal? if i had the money i would just get something custom made instead of bitching about who has a better manifold.. when they are both FORD () and dont go sayin mazdas arent fords.. because i swear to god there is a ford stamp on my ecu, which means that it is a ford hybrid or rather mazda ford combination, anyways.. ideas?? will a probe supercharger FIT in the same space on the intake side of the engine with out hitting the firewall? cause im thinkin bout taht way too...

if your looking to use a dizzy look to see if the plug where the dizzy goes is removable. That's what I'm trying to find out myself. its an upgrade for a probe. I have herd that it is a bolted in plug in the hole where the dizzy is supposed to go but I'm yet to confirm this. if it is a bolt in plug you should be able romove it and slide a dizzy in it so you would have to look for a probe head just find a dizzy that will fit. right?