Might be starting my build. Advice?

[peeenl]

I think I am shooting for an NA build that looks stock under the hood, for the most part. I've read way to many things on here though. Here's what I think I'm going for and in order of importance that I'm tracking right now. Feel free to let me know where you think I'm at on this sequence. Also, let me know which of these things you think might be best to hold out for on the used market place. I just don't want to wait 5 years for it, and I don't want it to be a part that is sketchy used.

#1. Cams. Unless I can find some of the better stuff (integral or twiggy) for less than insane prices I was going to go with the corksports. They will probably run better for a simple setup anyways...
$260 CS Intake Cam: http://www.corksport.com/j-spec-mazda-fs-ze-intake-camshaft-2.0l.html
$181 CS Exhaust Cam: http://www.corksport.com/corksport-power-series-exhaust-camshaft-for-2-0l.html

#2. Adjustable cam gears.
$400 @ http://www.srmotorsports.com/Mazda_Protege_Performance_Engine_Parts.html
- Are these really worth it? This is the only place I really found them new.

#3. Get higher compression.
I can definitely use some help here. I have seen a million combos on here of pistons and various rods.
Pistions: Are the HC pistons from SR Motorsports good? Anything better/better priced? (same website as cam gears)
Rods: No idea. I saw someone on the forum claiming modified 3sgte rods yielded best compression. I'll admit I have non idea what the modification would be, or even if getting different rods is worth it at all for NA.

#4. Intake. Injen the best? CAI vs Short Ram?
$278 Injen Intake: http://www.summitracing.com/parts/inj-rd6060p

Wild Card Stuff.
Lighter pulleys worth it? $400 @ http://www.srmotorsports.com/Mazda_Protege_Performance_Power_Pulleys_Parts.html
Intake Manifold worth it? $400 @ http://www.speedcircuit.net/index.p...folds/cast-single-runner-intake-manifold.html
(I've heard a lot of people on hear say the IM is the most limiting thing on this engine, but I don't really know if the SC one is a true improvement. Any experience?)
Headers? My gut tells me the cat is the most limiting thing in the exhaust, and that without changing that headers won't do too much. I could be wrong though, just let me know why and if it makes sense I'll believe you.
Head work. Most likely absolutely worth it, but I don't know a good shop for this in my area (Central Missouri). I'm also not well versed on this stuff since I can't do it myself. What should I be asking for? How much should I expect to pay?
Cylinder Bore. I'm not trying to do the 100hp per liter challenge...but I'm not gonna blow the bank if this won't help too much. What's the word out there?

I'm also hoping to keep my MP3 ECU stock til I get done throwing stuff on there. Which of the above will not operate on the MP3 ECU?

And I know half of everyone out there is going to say turbo...maybe you're right; but something tells me that for my skill set, all of the above is easier. My only experience is rebuilding a 71 mustang. No turbos or ecu changes/hacking/tune on that one, so those things scare me a little. I want to be a DIYer. You might talk me into it though. Never know...

 

[hornsfan10609]

For the money you are planning to spend it just doesn't make sense not to run a turbo. The FSDE does not make very much power even when built unless you boost it.

 

[Ice88]

I think I am shooting for an NA build that looks stock under the hood, for the most part. I've read way to many things on here though. Here's what I think I'm going for and in order of importance that I'm tracking right now. Feel free to let me know where you think I'm at on this sequence. Also, let me know which of these things you think might be best to hold out for on the used market place. I just don't want to wait 5 years for it, and I don't want it to be a part that is sketchy used.

#1. Cams. Unless I can find some of the better stuff (integral or twiggy) for less than insane prices I was going to go with the corksports. They will probably run better for a simple setup anyways...
$260 CS Intake Cam: http://www.corksport.com/j-spec-mazda-fs-ze-intake-camshaft-2.0l.html
$181 CS Exhaust Cam: http://www.corksport.com/corksport-power-series-exhaust-camshaft-for-2-0l.html

#2. Adjustable cam gears.
$400 @ http://www.srmotorsports.com/Mazda_Protege_Performance_Engine_Parts.html
- Are these really worth it? This is the only place I really found them new.

#3. Get higher compression.
I can definitely use some help here. I have seen a million combos on here of pistons and various rods.
Pistions: Are the HC pistons from SR Motorsports good? Anything better/better priced? (same website as cam gears)
Rods: No idea. I saw someone on the forum claiming modified 3sgte rods yielded best compression. I'll admit I have non idea what the modification would be, or even if getting different rods is worth it at all for NA.

#4. Intake. Injen the best? CAI vs Short Ram?
$278 Injen Intake: http://www.summitracing.com/parts/inj-rd6060p

Wild Card Stuff.
Lighter pulleys worth it? $400 @ http://www.srmotorsports.com/Mazda_Protege_Performance_Power_Pulleys_Parts.html
Intake Manifold worth it? $400 @ http://www.speedcircuit.net/index.p...folds/cast-single-runner-intake-manifold.html
(I've heard a lot of people on hear say the IM is the most limiting thing on this engine, but I don't really know if the SC one is a true improvement. Any experience?)
Headers? My gut tells me the cat is the most limiting thing in the exhaust, and that without changing that headers won't do too much. I could be wrong though, just let me know why and if it makes sense I'll believe you.
Head work. Most likely absolutely worth it, but I don't know a good shop for this in my area (Central Missouri). I'm also not well versed on this stuff since I can't do it myself. What should I be asking for? How much should I expect to pay?
Cylinder Bore. I'm not trying to do the 100hp per liter challenge...but I'm not gonna blow the bank if this won't help too much. What's the word out there?

I'm also hoping to keep my MP3 ECU stock til I get done throwing stuff on there. Which of the above will not operate on the MP3 ECU?

And I know half of everyone out there is going to say turbo...maybe you're right; but something tells me that for my skill set, all of the above is easier. My only experience is rebuilding a 71 mustang. No turbos or ecu changes/hacking/tune on that one, so those things scare me a little. I want to be a DIYer. You might talk me into it though. Never know...

#1. Those cams are mild if your doing a NA build go for Integral or Twiggy. The intake cam listed there comes stock for most of the world The exhaust cam is a copy of a MSF exhaust cam. Not exactly wild stuff.

#2. Those cam gears dont work. Forum search will yield why.

#3. No SR stuff is all copies of stuff and generally crap. The HC stuff is just FS-ZE or JDM DE pistons, higher then US compression but not exactly HC. Get a pair of K1 rods and Weisco 11:1 if your going after HC. If you want can grab 3SGTE Rods but the reality is that K1 rods will be cheaper, unless you really want to rev hard.

#4. Doesn't really matter. IM will restrict gains before Intake.

Your neglecting Exhaust Header from the list.

For the money you are planning to spend it just doesn't make sense not to run a turbo. The FSDE does not make very much power even when built unless you boost it.

To be fair not many people have done NA builds. Few have done JDM copies but that's not exactly pushing the envelope. Thats like calling a MSP swap a build.

 

[RyanJayG]

Those cams are not going to yield the power you might be hoping for. Webcam can re-grind your stock cams to achieve the same profiles as the cams listed above. Corksport uses Webcam for their grinds.
If you want something more aggressive, your stock cams can be welded and re-grinded to something more radical. Webcam can do that as well.
Due to cam and crank sensor synch, the SR cam gears will not work properly. The SR cam gears move the pickups with the cam, when it should stay with the belt. The cam needs to move alone.
If you are going to build a motor, you might as well join the darkside (Forced Induction). Building a forged motor with high compression pistons alone will not yield you much HP. If you went to 10.0-1CR you will be lucky to see 10hp from that by itself. Wiseco, Racetech and CP all make a nice piston. The piston design and forging is based off what your build will need.
A lighter crank pulley will free up a few extra ponies. You shouldn't go with an Underdrive crank pulley IMO. Slowing down your accessories 10-15% might not affect you now, but if you do go with a build that is making power, or a larger stereo system it will. The reduced accessory speed isn't freeing much, if any HP. The freed up power comes from the weight reduction in rotational mass.

 

[peeenl]

Good info. Especially on the parts that aren't going to work. I'm still jostling it all around in my head.

As for turbo vs. NA; I've got no problems with turbos and I know its probably the easiest way in reality; but I still feel like it is outside of my skill set (although a just do it attitude can get you pretty far). There also seems like something just slightly wrong about throwing a turbo on my mp3. Seems like I should just buy a MSP if that's how I want to go. I know the MP3 is the slower and older car, but it is the rarer car too. Just seems like it wants something a little different. Only time will tell though. If a nice kit pops up on the marketplace when I happen to be watching; I might snatch it up!

I would love to find integral or twiggy cams. The only hope is for some to pop up on here right now (that I'm tracking at least). If anyone knows somebody trying to sell some; point me their way!

As for custom cams, I would consider it if I knew a little more. I've read a lot of threads on them. There is a really good one on all the different cams floating around somewhere, but it falls just shy of giving me all the info I think I need to replicate the better stuff. BTW, I had another post looking for cams. Speedcircuit doesn't carry the integrals anymore. I tried looking into megacycles, but I didn't see them in their catalog either.

As for the exhaust, I feel like the cat is the most restrictive part of the equation. So I am ignoring headers until I do something with that. I'm also partial to the racing beat exhaust. Sounds nice, and it keeps my car looking subdued. That's the other cool thing about NA. Open the hood and nobody can really tell a difference (of course everyone on here says it wouldn't make a difference either)

 

[tweety2300]

The amount of money you spend on an na build to make 160 whp you can spend far less to boost it and make over 200. If you want different and na look into a kl swap. These motors aren't worth doing na builds on, there is a reason most don't. Go ride in a moded turbo car and you will fall in love with it, worst part about the msp is the turbo is so small there is no lag. But with a big turbo car you can feel it spool up and is way more fun

There are 2 cats on our cars a header will delete the pre cat and will show more gains than deleting the main cat

 

[peeenl]

I have thought about the KL swap too. I think that would be a little to electrically complicated for me. I can be a little compulsive if a good deal pops up though.

Its pretty much a forum watch for me right now. If the integral or twiggy cams pop up for sale any time soon I might shoot for the NA build and see where it goes. It won't hurt my feelings for other people to have faster protege's. If a nice turbo setup that is all inclusive pops up (and is nearby or willing to be shipped); I might bite on that. KL pops up on Craigslist in my neighborhood; then I'll be doing a lot of reading on this forum.

I actually did drive a custom turbo protege once before. It was pretty sick. There is always something better out there though; the best deals right now won't be the last ones; and the grass is greener on the other side, but it is still just grass. I appreciate all the advice and contributions in the forum no matter which way I go.

 

[tweety2300]

It's not about having the fastest it's about having it fast enough for you.

 

[peeenl]

In my foraging for parts available on here I saw a set of forged K1 long rods and forged wiseco pistons at .40 over and 11:1 compression. I've also got a line going on some custom cams.

If I did start this build and wasn't happy with it could I still boost at 11:1? If my math is correct I should be able to run about 3-4lbs boost less (in comparison to a low compression build and with appropriate upgrades) and have the same pressure; but would the additional heat of that setup destroy something?

 

[hornsfan10609]

It is not safe to run that high of compression with boost. I would try to stick with stock compression or lower and throw a nice disco potato or one of the new GTX hybrid turbos on it with about 15lbs.

 

[tweety2300]

Not only will you end up blowing it up but 3-4 psi is useless On a t25. And there is no turbo that will be efficient at that low of boost. Do your self the favor and boost it now instead if wasting time and money with an na build

 

[Ice88]

In my foraging for parts available on here I saw a set of forged K1 long rods and forged wiseco pistons at .40 over and 11:1 compression. I've also got a line going on some custom cams.

If I did start this build and wasn't happy with it could I still boost at 11:1? If my math is correct I should be able to run about 3-4lbs boost less (in comparison to a low compression build and with appropriate upgrades) and have the same pressure; but would the additional heat of that setup destroy something?

yes you can boost it.

 

[peeenl]

15 lbs of boost is pretty high, but lets run the math on it. Assume compression is 8:1 in theory. Natural air pressure is approximately 15psi.
(15+15)x8=240psi inside compressed cylinder.

For same cylinder pressure and 11:1 numbers; 240/11= almost 22. That would equate to the same cylinder pressure at 7lbs of boost.

That pressure will be over a smaller volume though; and my real question is whether the higher heat from that is to much for the engine components, and which component would likely be the fail point?

I still may just do a turbo build, so I do appreciate everyone's input; I'm just looking for some hard numbers though. If I'm not understanding the math behind it correctly, please let me know...

I have seen some other engines run boost and high compression yielding massive hp numbers; mind you that isn't this engine, and I'm not looking for that kind of power.

 

[RyanJayG]

In my foraging for parts available on here I saw a set of forged K1 long rods and forged wiseco pistons at .40 over and 11:1 compression. I've also got a line going on some custom cams.

If I did start this build and wasn't happy with it could I still boost at 11:1? If my math is correct I should be able to run about 3-4lbs boost less (in comparison to a low compression build and with appropriate upgrades) and have the same pressure; but would the additional heat of that setup destroy something?

Yes, you can boost on 11-1CR. Depending on the quality of the pump gas where you are and the tune, you can do it just fine. I have boosted on 10.5-1 at 10psi on 93 octane without issue.

 

[Ice88]

15 lbs of boost is pretty high, but lets run the math on it. Assume compression is 8:1 in theory. Natural air pressure is approximately 15psi.
(15+15)x8=240psi inside compressed cylinder.

For same cylinder pressure and 11:1 numbers; 240/11= almost 22. That would equate to the same cylinder pressure at 7lbs of boost.

That pressure will be over a smaller volume though; and my real question is whether the higher heat from that is to much for the engine components, and which component would likely be the fail point?

I still may just do a turbo build, so I do appreciate everyone's input; I'm just looking for some hard numbers though. If I'm not understanding the math behind it correctly, please let me know...

I have seen some other engines run boost and high compression yielding massive hp numbers; mind you that isn't this engine, and I'm not looking for that kind of power.

Your maths is flawed as well as some of your theory.

For instance, an FS engine does not run at 100% VE. A SC stage II head operates at around 85%-90% VE.

So assuming you had good head work lets do the numbers again:
Boost = 15psi
PSI Inside Chamber = (14.7 * .9) = 13.23

Thus:
PSI = (15+13.23) * 8
PSI = 225.84

PSI = (15+13.23)*11
PSI = 310

Or:
225.84 = (x+13.23)*11
Bosst = 7.3lb

Assuming you aim for the same Cranking Pressure you'd need to run 7.30 lbs of Boost. What I dont understand is why we are calculating cranking pressure? What you want to calculate is dynamic compression as that will ultimatley determine the limits of boost and compression you can go to.

Why would the pressure be over a smaller volume? If your boring the engine out .40, its actually going to be over a larger volume.

The amount of heat from 15lbs off the same turbo is going to be more then 7lbs. Pending on efficiency range, but the reality is when staying to the left of the max efficiency range on a compressor map the temperatures are going to be cooler then being on the right side of the max efficiency on a compressor map. So heat really is a moot point.

Granted there will be more heat compared to a NA engine, that is a given.

What you would do with this engine is run a nice set of integral stage 1.5s or 2s. This would mean that you could set your rev limit to 7.5k. Enjoy the extra head room that the cams bring you while also enjoying the same DD ability that you have now off boost.

Fail to see a down side? It may end up a little more expensive pending on the price of the pistons and the rods. But the end build IMO will be much much nicer.