Mazda 2 decision making help

[keicar]

Hi,
I recently joined this forum, was looking for some advice on deciding between Mazda2 and Golf Mk4 2.0 based on some really weird criteria
1] Old school hydraulic power steering
Mazda2 - Electric power steering , not a big fan..but as per specs its supposed to be "rpm sensitive" ; does that mean it will reduce assist at higher speeds ?
Also I'm not sure if anything can be done to make this fully manual as in the case of hydraulic system ?
Golf - has a hydraulic steering so I will get a better road feel.
Also I have option to purchase a kit which makes it fully manual steering with 0 assist from the pump.. I'd love to drive something without assist. my last car a civic coupe I had similar setup (had removed the hydraulic assist)

2] Drive by Cable
Mazda 2 - drive by wire, ECU decide how much of my input = translates to how much of response. I can feel the sponginess in response on drive by wires..
Golf - Proper drive by cable , I control the input and the throttle is proportional to the amount I floor it..feels more crisper

3] Weight
Mazda2 - awesome barely 1050 kgs, mazda wins hands down, I'm sure it will handle awesome also. Unbelievable how light this thing is.. most important factor why I'm even considering this - its so light
Golf - its heavy @ 1300 Kgs

4] Engine
Mazda 2 - DOHC 4 valve..
Golf - SOHC, 2 valve, pretty old engine - but here is what I like about it , its only SOHC 8 valves which makes it good for low end torque , 128 lb/foot @ 2600 rpm. also the exhaust sounds beautiful

5] Gearbox position ..very subjective topic but
Mazda2 - WTF is wrong ? why is it on the dash ?
Golf - properly located in the traditional position

6] Exhaust ..again very subjective topic
Mazda2 - don't know, not seen a single vid on youtube which sounds good
GOlf - pops, crackles and burbles after a simple resonator delete, I would buy this car just to hear this soundtrack

Last but most important
I prefer older cars where there is no interference from electronics/electricals and I can feel the road with the steering even if the older cars are slower/less efficient
Guys .. plz tell me I'm wrong about the Mazda2 on the electric power steering and drive by wire and the specs on paper Golf is a bad decision.(crazy)

 

[deadlydave]

The Golf is a bad decision for a lot of personally subjective reasons. But rather than dwell on my personal feelings, let's have a look at your thoughts, criteria, and I'll give my input. I definitely know where you're coming from with the old-school approach though.

Hi,
1] Old school hydraulic power steering
Mazda2 - Electric power steering
Golf - has a hydraulic steering so I will get a better road feel.

Not all hydraulic systems are equal, just as not all electric systems are equal. Of the few modern econoboxes I've driven, the 2's steering was the best. Very direct and light, without feeling over-boosted. Also, almost anything is going to feel a lot better than leaky/blown hydro steering.

2] Drive by Cable
Mazda 2 - drive by wire
Golf - Proper drive by cable

I've driven a few DBW vehicles. Some had the lag you describe, but not my 2. The engine responds very similarly to the M42 16v 1.8L engine my E30 had.

3] Weight
Mazda2 - awesome barely 1050 kgs, mazda wins hands down, I'm sure it will handle awesome also. Unbelievable how light this thing is.. most important factor why I'm even considering this - its so light
Golf - its heavy @ 1300 Kgs

Additionally, A new or slighly used 3 will be nearly 100% body metal. A MkIV Golf may be partly rust, and rust is many times heavier than steel.

4] Engine
Mazda 2 - DOHC 4 valve..
Golf - SOHC, 2 valve

The golf's engine is more than sort of old. It produces more power, but will also need more frequent maintenance, sooner in your ownership period. I haven't seen any complaints about the 1.5's durability, and contrary to most V.A.G. products, the MkIV's 2.0 is pretty damn solid.

5] Gearbox position ..very subjective topic but
Mazda2 - WTF is wrong ? why is it on the dash ?
Golf - properly located in the traditional position

When driving, you honestly don't notice. Your hand falls right to it. It's ergonomically sound, and has an awesome shift feel I didn't expect in an econobox. The golf's subjective advantage is that it has a center console to rest your arm on.

6] Exhaust ..again very subjective topic
Mazda2 - don't know, not seen a single vid on youtube which sounds good
GOlf - pops, crackles and burbles after a simple resonator delete, I would buy this car just to hear this soundtrack

I can't tell the difference between most semi-modern I-4 engines, to be honest. I'm not sure I'd want my commuter car to pop, crackle, and burble--it got me a LOT of the wrong kind of attention on my e30, which had the additional handicap of looking fast while being slow as hell.

Here's a number of reasons why the 2 is a good decision:
-Great community, with involved vendors.
-Affordable, legitimate performance parts (a rare combo)
-Less common than the Golf, so easier to have a unique car
-While being 'new', it is still the type of 'barn-door' engineering that appeals to me. It's modern, but simple.
-Competition-proven chassis
-New. Ish.

Here's a number of reasons why a golf is a bad idea:
-It will need more work, sooner, which cuts into the fun mod budget.
-My friends and I have had major issues with VW/Audi electronics in cars of that age.
-Old
-Not particularly unique.
-Have you ever visited VWvortex?

Thus ends my friendly little blurb. Hopefully It didn't come off as snobbish, just figured I'd try to inform and entertain.

 

[eyeballs]

The steering, shifter, and brakes had me sold practically before I could drive it off the lot. If you enjoy driving, aren't into stoplight drags, and like the idea of a lightweight tossable car you can beat on endlessly and still get great mpg's then you'll like the 2. As a bonus you get a car that newer, safer, and has a warranty. It's like a tall 4 door crx with new car smell.

 

[keicar]

The Golf is a bad decision for a lot of personally subjective reasons. But rather than dwell on my personal feelings, let's have a look at your thoughts, criteria, and I'll give my input. I definitely know where you're coming from with the old-school approach though.


Not all hydraulic systems are equal, just as not all electric systems are equal. Of the few modern econoboxes I've driven, the 2's steering was the best. Very direct and light, without feeling over-boosted. Also, almost anything is going to feel a lot better than leaky/blown hydro steering.


I've driven a few DBW vehicles. Some had the lag you describe, but not my 2. The engine responds very similarly to the M42 16v 1.8L engine my E30 had.


Additionally, A new or slighly used 3 will be nearly 100% body metal. A MkIV Golf may be partly rust, and rust is many times heavier than steel.


The golf's engine is more than sort of old. It produces more power, but will also need more frequent maintenance, sooner in your ownership period. I haven't seen any complaints about the 1.5's durability, and contrary to most V.A.G. products, the MkIV's 2.0 is pretty damn solid.


When driving, you honestly don't notice. Your hand falls right to it. It's ergonomically sound, and has an awesome shift feel I didn't expect in an econobox. The golf's subjective advantage is that it has a center console to rest your arm on.


I can't tell the difference between most semi-modern I-4 engines, to be honest. I'm not sure I'd want my commuter car to pop, crackle, and burble--it got me a LOT of the wrong kind of attention on my e30, which had the additional handicap of looking fast while being slow as hell.

Here's a number of reasons why the 2 is a good decision:
-Great community, with involved vendors.
-Affordable, legitimate performance parts (a rare combo)
-Less common than the Golf, so easier to have a unique car
-While being 'new', it is still the type of 'barn-door' engineering that appeals to me. It's modern, but simple.
-Competition-proven chassis
-New. Ish.

Here's a number of reasons why a golf is a bad idea:
-It will need more work, sooner, which cuts into the fun mod budget.
-My friends and I have had major issues with VW/Audi electronics in cars of that age.
-Old
-Not particularly unique.
-Have you ever visited VWvortex?

Thus ends my friendly little blurb. Hopefully It didn't come off as snobbish, just figured I'd try to inform and entertain.

Thank you very much !!!!! this is hardly snobbish
Its just what I wanted to hear something in Mazda's favour.. I feel a bit guilty not sticking to old school manual steering, cable throttle, rotor-distributors, valve tappet assemblies etc etc
You exactly got it right ..where I was coming from. I also believe in "drive slow car fast" ..

Yes - 2.0s are quite reliable and luckily in Canada VW had brought the 2.0 back in the form of a city, so I can get my hands on a used "year 2010 20K miles only" old school golf.

But coming back to mazda 2.. if it feels like a manual steering and throttle feels like cable then I'm ok. Didn't feel comfortable that an electric motor would open the throttle for me based on what it thinks is right etc etc,
In Mazda's favour the after market support looks very good , just did a quick search - Light weight flywheels,different final drives, stiffer bushes,short shifters, Mazda 2 specific dampers etc .. Mazda 2 tuning is quite awesome - seems I'm not going to miss anything.

Regarding the exhaust sound I used to have a "Ansa silverline" muffler, you could adjust the diameter of the exit aperture with allen keys or if you are feeling brave - pull out the inner silencer and go sort of straight pipe..
I hope I can use that as an axle back on the 2 or fabricate something with the local muffler shop .. its going to be a nice project.

Thanks for your reply

 

[keicar]

like the idea of a lightweight tossable car you can beat on endlessly

yes .. thats most important.

It's like a tall 4 door crx with new car smell.

that nails it

 

[keicar]

and like the idea of a lightweight tossable car you can beat on endlessly

Just to add to that .. I also used to drive a Suzuki hatch for some time : weighing @ 680Kgs - no AC, no power steering, no servo/assist for the brakes , no ABS, cable throttle with a F8D 800 cc 3 cylinder 4 valve MPFI peppy engine.. and best part - 12 inch wheels the classic cooper tyres were a perfect fit.
This was sold as "kei" car category in Japan as a "Suzuki Alto" long time ago.. (I'm not japanese or even been to Japan..just that the car continued to be sold in other places)
It would be considered POS by any and all standards but I loved it... at 120 Kmh it would bounce around and sound like you are riding a bike,cornering/handling was a joke ,nothing beats driving a light weight bad car at its limit ..LOL
I had option of taking the bigger/safer cars but no way ..nothing like a light weight POS suzuki

So this explains my attraction towards the Mazda2 (small light weight) but was holding back because it was "sort of too modern" with electric everything.

 

[DaleNixon]

Go test drive one. That's all it took for me.

 

[keicar]

Go test drive one. That's all it took for me.

I test drove one - I got even more confused thats why I came here ..
It felt too tall , the dashboard was too high, couldn't see the road properly.. I'm used to seeing the front bonnet in front of me and sitting in a low slung position inside and not "on top"
I was already pissed of with the awkward position of the gearbox, didn't notice anything exceptional or maybe I was a bit thrown off by the positioning to notice much.
Clutch was too soft/floaty , could find the point where it engages quickly ..but its a matter of getting used to I think.
Handling wise, I think I need to get used to the tall position before I can really start throwing it around.. call me an idiot but back of my mind I felt I would topple it if I throw it hard into a corner... but thats just just me, I'm sure the car has more potential .Its just that in a small test drive I didn't quite get it ..so I thought come here to see if it was really "getting used to " was the cause or the car.
Seems everyone says it handles well so I would just need to get used to it..

 

[DrWebster]

Based on your list and how you compared the cars, it sounds like the only reason you still have the 2 on the list is because of its weight. If you want the feel of an older car with less tech, then the 2 is not for you.

 

[DaleNixon]

I gotta agree. If the test drive didn't feel right this might not be the car for you.

 

[Danielcut]

I have to agree with these guys. If the test drive didn't feel right then it may not be for you. I wasn't even looking at 2s but I drove one and before I got off the lot I was ready to buy one.

 

[keicar]

ok ..guys ..guess what I'm going for another test drive but with an open mind.
So many reviews say its an awesome car, there is something wrong in my head ..going to give it another shot
I had mini cooper on my list for some time but after some reasearch I figured out its the most unreliable POS ever..

 

[CorkSport]

ok ..guys ..guess what I'm going for another test drive but with an open mind.
So many reviews say its an awesome car, there is something wrong in my head ..going to give it another shot
I had mini cooper on my list for some time but after some reasearch I figured out its the most unreliable POS ever..

See if there are any of the people here on the forum near you which can let you take their car for a whirl, especially a modded car.

-Derrick

 

[eyeballs]

If you're not completely sold after the test drive then just forget it, the car isn't for you. I'm surprised you find the shifter location so awkward. Sure, it looks a bit strange but I love it since its so close to the steering wheel. Even with the factory armrest in place it works great. Add the short shift plate and it just doesn't get much better. By comparison the throws on the miata now feel super long.

 

[molex7]

have to agree with the flow of the thread, if it doesn't feel right do not go with it. You are going to use this car everyday or almost everyday, you're going to want something that feels right. If you want to try some other similar cars test drive a fiesta and a fit. When i drove the fiesta it felt okay, but it didn't really surprise me or feel "right", the mazda2 grabbed me right away when i drove it. The fit also felt really good, i struggled for awhile over the fit/mazda2 and it eventually came down to the extra $4k and being less efficient that led me to the mazda2, haven't looked back since.

 

[genericmoniker]

Whereabouts are you located in Canada?

Honestly, if you don't like the feel, just look at a different car. If you adjust the seat to the full-down position, I find it doesn't feel much different than my old civic in terms of driving position. Also, not seeing the hood is something you'll find on alot of newer cars, simply because it's "in" to have short overhangs atm.

 

[deadlydave]

Keicar, glad you found my post helpful. The rest of the posters are right, if the car doesn't feel intrinsically right to you during the test drive, you're probably going to get sick of it. I fell in love with the Lexus IS300 a few years ago--on paper--test drove it without driving any other cars, and bought it. I ended up selling it 15 months later. If you can't connect with the car, no matter how good it looks on paper, you will never love it.

 

[Max Archer]

Keicar, if you test drive one again and didn't know it last time, there's a seat height adjustment lever in front of the tilt adjust, playing with that may help you find a better driving position. The height takes some getting used to if you're coming from a lower-slung car. I'd been driving my dad's S2000 for a week after I screwed up something on the 2, and after fixing the 2 and driving it yesterday it definitely took some time before I was used to the height again.

I find the 2 to be about as close to cars of an earlier era as you're going to drive off a lot these days. It may be covered in a modern veneer, but its fundamental characteristics are that of a hatchback from the early '90s. The electric steering is good enough that I couldn't even remember if it was electric or hydraulic when asked recently, and the DBW is unnoticeable compared to other DBW cars I've owned and driven.

What I would do for another test drive is find a dealer with some twisty roads nearby and ask to test it there. I never would've had bought a 2 if I'd only test driven one around the block. I ended up in mine because I was at a canyon road and a friend convinced me to give his a try; it was so brilliant on those roads that I ended up trading my Civic Si in on one the next week.

Oh, and I won't make any bones about it, the clutch sucks. Even after a year and a half I find it kinda awkward when leaving a light. Out on the open road or track I'm used to it and it's not an issue when the car's in motion, but it's an annoyance when starting from a stop. Word has it that there's some sort of mechanism in it that's supposed to make it easier for new drivers to avoid stalling it out, and that changing to an aftermarket clutch fixes it completely. It's not a deal breaker in any way to me, but it's not as good as it could be for sure.

 

[deadlydave]

Word has it that there's some sort of mechanism in it that's supposed to make it easier for new drivers to avoid stalling it out, and that changing to an aftermarket clutch fixes it completely. It's not a deal breaker in any way to me, but it's not as good as it could be for sure.

Sounds like the clutch delay valve that Honda uses in the Fit. Having driven a fit, the 2 was nowhere near as bad.

 

[keicar]

Whereabouts are you located in Canada?

Honestly, if you don't like the feel, just look at a different car. If you adjust the seat to the full-down position, I find it doesn't feel much different than my old civic in terms of driving position. Also, not seeing the hood is something you'll find on alot of newer cars, simply because it's "in" to have short overhangs atm.

I'm in Ontario, Brampton
I'm going to try lowering the seat and give it a shot .. hopefully in this week..
(my old civic = 96 model the ..the ones which came with front double wishbone)