Just put a deposit down on a Touring...HELP! Questions about AWD!

[freelyfallin]

Hey all,
I currently have a 2005 Mazda 3 Hatchback, which I love especially because it's so peppy and fun to drive. I live in Colorado now, and want a car that can handle snow with ease and is more suitable for outdoor activities such as getting to campsites on backcountry roads etc. So I've test driven all of the Subaru's (Impreza, Crosstrek, Forester, as well as the CX-5 twice. I like the CX-5 a lot, it retains a lot of what I love about the Mazda 3, and is more versatile (higher ground clearance, more space, AWD.)

So here's my conundrum: I love to ski, and want a car that can handle snow well. As I understand it, Subaru makes the best AWD system out there. Whereas Subaru's AWD sends power to all wheels fulltime, I understand that Mazda's system is reactive. I understand this to mean that Mazda's AWD system will sense if there's been tire slippage, etc., and send power to all four wheels. So here are some questions:

1) Subaru's system may be superior, but would it make a real world difference for me in the snow?

2) A Subaru salesperson told me that Mazda (and other similar companies) AWD system only operates at speeds under 43 mph. Can anyone validate/refute this?

3) I want to know more about how Mazda's AWD system functions, but I can only find limited info online. Anyone have resources?

Thanks!

 

[deepfriedsushi]

1) Members here seem to report that they've been very happy with the way that the CX5's system responds in the snow. The system is a reactive system, but from watching some videos it doesn't take much wheel spin before the rear wheels engage. In this video you can watch the CX5's AWD system engage and spin all 4 tires together like a traditional 4x4 system and not spin some wheels faster than others like it had an open differential.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=med9V-vO9d0

It not getting up the ramp means the TIRES just didn't have enough traction. Even if you had a Jeep and it's traditional 4x4 system do the same test and it's tires didn't have enough traction, it would have produced the same results of not being able to make it up the ramp. In the real world, it's not going to be the AWD system that makes the difference, it will be the tires, but the AWD can help.

Here's some videos showing how well the CX5's AWD system can cope with more "real world" snow.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3hC3qsGjs6I
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bIaIEPHHPNc

2) I have not seen anything indicating that there is a maximum speed limit, but I would not be surprised if there was. The AWD is mostly utilized for acceleration when traction is compromised, which is most likely to happen at low speeds. If you're traveling that fast in loose conditions, the AWD is not going to give you that much extra control. It will be about the amount of traction you would have from the tires. If you're losing traction when accelerating at speeds 43mph+, I think you're going to be worrying about more important things like being able to brake and steer in a controlled manner. At those speeds, AWD isn't going to help you. Again, it will be the tires that give you the most control in slippery conditions. Not AWD.

3) Sadly mazda's own website does not go into much detail about the AWD system. But there are plenty of videos showing the CX5 in some pretty extreme conditions to show you what it's capable of.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S0_uFKYsAmI

 

[cybercruiser]

I agree, the Mazda's wheels were spinning evenly, I think it had more to do with tires.

 

[chinq6t]

Almost every time AWD has come into play for me is getting out from a dead stop. Like a snowed in parking spot, slope, driveway, some cases on the highway when it hasn't been completely cleared I sense it kept me on course. This was all on stock tires. I've pondered purchasing dedicated snow tires just for the season to use and it'd prolong the life of the all season tires but so far I've concluded I'll just stick with all seasons after the stock tires are due for a change. That's my intention any way.

 

[freelyfallin]

1)
2) I have not seen anything indicating that there is a maximum speed limit, but I would not be surprised if there was. The AWD is mostly utilized for acceleration when traction is compromised, which is most likely to happen at low speeds. If you're traveling that fast in loose conditions, the AWD is not going to give you that much extra control. It will be about the amount of traction you would have from the tires. If you're losing traction when accelerating at speeds 43mph+, I think you're going to be worrying about more important things like being able to brake and steer in a controlled manner. At those speeds, AWD isn't going to help you. Again, it will be the tires that give you the most control in slippery conditions. Not AWD.

3) Sadly mazda's own website does not go into much detail about the AWD system. But there are plenty of videos showing the CX5 in some pretty extreme conditions to show you what it's capable of.

Thanks. So I think I'm confident enough that the AWD system on the CX-5 works well in getting moving at slow speeds in snow. I can imagine one situation where AWD at higher speeds would be helpful: trucking along at 50 or 60 mph on a snow packed highway on the way to go skiing. Wouldn't AWD prevent loss of traction/skidding in that situation? Or am I missing something?

It's annoying too to not know for certain if the AWD system in the Mazda operates at higher speeds. When I asked the Mazda salesman about what the Subaru salesman had said (the Mazda and other AWD systems do not function at higher speeds), the Mazda dealer said the other guy was lying. Who knows...it's all hearsay.

 

[SirWanker]

Thanks. So I think I'm confident enough that the AWD system on the CX-5 works well in getting moving at slow speeds in snow. I can imagine one situation where AWD at higher speeds would be helpful: trucking along at 50 or 60 mph on a snow packed highway on the way to go skiing. Wouldn't AWD prevent loss of traction/skidding in that situation? Or am I missing something?

For your situation, a set of dedicated winter tyres would be advisable.
Do understand that AWD will not prevent loss of traction/skidding if you do not drive according to the road conditions.
Better yet, AWD will not help you stop faster or in shorter distances.

I have a 2014 CX-5 GS FWD with snows and had no issues last winter on the highway or side roads.

EDIT: found a post for you

and Mazda's part-time AWD system is called Active Torque Split (ATS), and is shared with the bigger CX7 and CX9s. As it constantly monitors traction, the system can send up to 50 percent of torque to the rear wheels.

and Mazda Active Torque Split All-Wheel Drive system's resting state sends 100 percent of torque to the front wheels. However, depending on the vehicle's grip needs, an electromagnetic center differential can divert power to the rear wheel for up to a 50/50 torque split between the front and rear axles.

 

[deepfriedsushi]

I can imagine one situation where AWD at higher speeds would be helpful: trucking along at 50 or 60 mph on a snow packed highway on the way to go skiing. Wouldn't AWD prevent loss of traction/skidding in that situation? Or am I missing something?

The AWD will not help you in those situations. Traction and skidding still boils down to the amount of grip you have between the road and the tires. If you had teflon coated tires, AWD will not help you at all. To maintain control at all speeds will be dictated by amount of traction you have.

There are plenty of people who have FWD cars with a set of decent snow tires and they can get around just fine in snowy conditions.

This has been a question that people have been asking for a very long time. And because of that, there are plenty of videos demonstrating the effectiveness of snow tires vs AWD.

I've always like these ones.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7l2cMlNRX_A

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mfuE00qdhLA

Remember...AWD only helps with acceleration, but when driving, you need to have the capability to accelerate, brake and corner and that boils down to having enough traction.

 

[vroom]

I agree with everyone here. Getting good snow tires should be your first priority before investing in AWD. Tires are what will prevent you from skidding, no AWD system will do that. AWD will help you get going from a slippery intersection faster from a stop or climb a slick incline, and may help a little with under steer in slow slippery cornering. I don't know if the AWD works at high speed, but it should not make a significant difference anyway.

 

[Beefy]

Remember...AWD only helps with acceleration, but when driving, you need to have the capability to accelerate, brake and corner and that boils down to having enough traction.

Going around a corner is also acceleration by definition. It is ridiculous to say that the back wheels could not help in the event of front wheel slippage during a corner, even if only a small amount.

 

[freelyfallin]

Thanks for the replies all. I understand snow tires will help with traction a lot. I am going off of driving up to the mountains in my friends Forester with standard tires on snow/ice covered roads and encountering no skidding etc.

I am thinking of snow tires, but here's my problem with that: I'm commuting more than 300 miles per a week right now. Colorado is mostly sunny and dry in the winter time, with intermittent snow on the Front range, where I live. So I could buy snow tires, but I would be concerned about wearing them out rather quickly. I also go up to 80 or even 90 on the highways, not sure if snow tires can handle that. Anyone have thoughts about this?

I also moved here from Oregon, where I may move back to again soon. While they get tons of snow on Mount Hood in the winter, most years they get none in Portland. So once I move back to Oregon, would it be worth it have snow tires for the 10-20 days I spend skiing? AWD and standard tires seems like it could be a good option to do both...

For your situation, a set of dedicated winter tyres would be advisable.
Do understand that AWD will not prevent loss of traction/skidding if you do not drive according to the road conditions.
Better yet, AWD will not help you stop faster or in shorter distances.

I have a 2014 CX-5 GS FWD with snows and had no issues last winter on the highway or side roads.
EDIT: found a post for you

and Mazda's part-time AWD system is called Active Torque Split (ATS), and is shared with the bigger CX7 and CX9s. As it constantly monitors traction, the system can send up to 50 percent of torque to the rear wheels.

and Mazda Active Torque Split All-Wheel Drive system's resting state sends 100 percent of torque to the front wheels. However, depending on the vehicle's grip needs, an electromagnetic center differential can divert power to the rear wheel for up to a 50/50 torque split between the front and rear axles.

The AWD will not help you in those situations. Traction and skidding still boils down to the amount of grip you have between the road and the tires. If you had teflon coated tires, AWD will not help you at all. To maintain control at all speeds will be dictated by amount of traction you have.

There are plenty of people who have FWD cars with a set of decent snow tires and they can get around just fine in snowy conditions.

This has been a question that people have been asking for a very long time. And because of that, there are plenty of videos demonstrating the effectiveness of snow tires vs AWD.

I've always like these ones.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7l2cMlNRX_A

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mfuE00qdhLA

Remember...AWD only helps with acceleration, but when driving, you need to have the capability to accelerate, brake and corner and that boils down to having enough traction.

Going around a corner is also acceleration by definition. It is ridiculous to say that the back wheels could not help in the event of front wheel slippage during a corner, even if only a small amount.

 

[bxpretzel]

Thanks for the replies all. I understand snow tires will help with traction a lot. I am going off of driving up to the mountains in my friends Forester with standard tires on snow/ice covered roads and encountering no skidding etc.

I am thinking of snow tires, but here's my problem with that: I'm commuting more than 300 miles per a week right now. Colorado is mostly sunny and dry in the winter time, with intermittent snow on the Front range, where I live. So I could buy snow tires, but I would be concerned about wearing them out rather quickly. I also go up to 80 or even 90 on the highways, not sure if snow tires can handle that. Anyone have thoughts about this?

I also moved here from Oregon, where I may move back to again soon. While they get tons of snow on Mount Hood in the winter, most years they get none in Portland. So once I move back to Oregon, would it be worth it have snow tires for the 10-20 days I spend skiing? AWD and standard tires seems like it could be a good option to do both...

No suggestions, just wanted to say how jealous I am of you living/moving back to Portland! I spent a summer there doing an internship and fell in love with the entire PNW, but haven't been able to move back (need a job first!). Going to law school soon, considering U of O and Lewis & Clark among my other school choices.

 

[vroom]

Going around a corner is also acceleration by definition. It is ridiculous to say that the back wheels could not help in the event of front wheel slippage during a corner, even if only a small amount.

I may not be understanding whay you are saying correctly, so bare with me... But you should be carefull about using words as strong as rediculous when you may not be understanding all of what you are implying. You are correct that going around a corner is acceleration. Only, it is latteral acceleration (at a right angle to the direction you are going and to the direction the wheels are pointing). Your wheels can only apply power in the back-to-front (or front-to-back) direction (accelarating forward for example). There is no amount of power a wheel can have that will help it counter a latteral force. The only way to counter a latteral force is with more grip (as opposed to traction, subtle difference here), which is what snow tires have that all seasons lack.

I also moved here from Oregon, where I may move back to again soon. While they get tons of snow on Mount Hood in the winter, most years they get none in Portland. So once I move back to Oregon, would it be worth it have snow tires for the 10-20 days I spend skiing? AWD and standard tires seems like it could be a good option to do both...

It's you decision in the end. If what you are looking for is not getting stuck, or just the fun of accelerating faster on a slippery road, AWD will probably help to some degree (this is why I got AWD). If you a afraid of skidding into the ditch on slippery roads, you are making a bad and unsafe decision by going with AWD, go with snow tires instead (which is also what I did, but I live in Canada...). As long as you are aware of the different benefits of AWD vs snow tires, you will be able to make the proper decision...

 

[SirWanker]

I am thinking of snow tires, but here's my problem with that: I'm commuting more than 300 miles per a week right now. Colorado is mostly sunny and dry in the winter time, with intermittent snow on the Front range, where I live. So I could buy snow tires, but I would be concerned about wearing them out rather quickly. I also go up to 80 or even 90 on the highways, not sure if snow tires can handle that. Anyone have thoughts about this?

That depends on the manufacturer

I also moved here from Oregon, where I may move back to again soon. While they get tons of snow on Mount Hood in the winter, most years they get none in Portland. So once I move back to Oregon, would it be worth it have snow tires for the 10-20 days I spend skiing? AWD and standard tires seems like it could be a good option to do both...

In general, the rubber compound in standard tyres become hard in cold temperatures. This will lead to decreased traction.

 

[Beefy]

You are correct that going around a corner is acceleration. Only, it is latteral acceleration (at a right angle to the direction you are going and to the direction the wheels are pointing). Your wheels can only apply power in the back-to-front (or front-to-back) direction (accelarating forward for example). There is no amount of power a wheel can have that will help it counter a latteral force. The only way to counter a latteral force is with more grip (as opposed to traction, subtle difference here), which is what snow tires have that all seasons lack.

All true, but there is a lot more to consider than a black-and-white lateral versus forward forces. By decreasing the torque to the front wheels you reduce the potential for extended slippage of the front wheels, by keeping forward drive you maximise the chance of pushing into an area of road where grip recovers rather than maintaining understeer; absolute worst case scenario, effects that augment the TCS and DSC systems. From my own experiences in the snow the AWD helps dramatically during cornering. It very rarely understeers, and with a well timed stab of the gas the rear wheels will kick in enough to flick the back end out and push the car through the slip.

So, I will stick to my guns. It is ridiculous to say that the AWD does not help at all during cornering.

 

[freelyfallin]

It's you decision in the end. If what you are looking for is not getting stuck, or just the fun of accelerating faster on a slippery road, AWD will probably help to some degree (this is why I got AWD). If you a afraid of skidding into the ditch on slippery roads, you are making a bad and unsafe decision by going with AWD, go with snow tires instead (which is also what I did, but I live in Canada...). As long as you are aware of the different benefits of AWD vs snow tires, you will be able to make the proper decision...

Well clearly it's not an either AWD or snow tire decision, I can do both, which I'm sure would be the safest bet.

 

[vroom]

In that case I mostly agree with you Beefy, thanks for clarifying! That's why I said in an earlier post that AWD could help with understeer. I would not say dramatically though, mostly at low speeds, and you do need proper driving technique for it to work. I, like you, stab the gas pedal to recover from an understeer situation, mostly when turning right or left at an intersection. I would never attempt that at any speed higher than 50 kmh. And I would say that 99% of drivers don't drive like that: they stab the brakes at any sign of control loss. So for 99% of the people AWD does very little in these cases.

 

[fdew]

Having owned and driven all the combinations of drive train and tires I rate them as follows for winter driving.
AWD with good snows 10
FWD with good snows 9
RWD with good snows 5
AWD without snows Nuts 2
FWD without snows Nuts 2
RWD without snows Nuts 1

For breaking, There is no difference between AWD and FWD and RWD. unless you are using the brakes and gas together (Example, hand brake turns) Then FWD with rear wheel hand brake can be a blast.


Before you can accelerate, slow down, turn, make hand break turns, or anything else except listen to the radio you must have traction. The biggest component of traction is the tires.

 

[Kedis82ZE8]

Having owned and driven all the combinations of drive train and tires I rate them as follows for winter driving.
AWD with good snows 10
FWD with good snows 9
RWD with good snows 5
AWD without snows Nuts 2
FWD without snows Nuts 2
RWD without snows Nuts 1

For breaking, There is no difference between AWD and FWD and RWD. unless you are using the brakes and gas together (Example, hand brake turns) Then FWD with rear wheel hand brake can be a blast.


Before you can accelerate, slow down, turn, make hand break turns, or anything else except listen to the radio you must have traction. The biggest component of traction is the tires.

One could probably break it down even more and state summer versus all-season. IMO: I would consider summer tires on snow nuts.

 

[cybercruiser]

I just don't want to always have to store the 2nd set of tires, sigh....

 

[fdew]

I just don't want to always have to store the 2nd set of tires, sigh....

3 choices.
Run snows year round.
Live in the south
Own a colision shop.