I want at least 130 rwhp

I got My Header! I can't wait to put it on. Still have to weld the EGR Bung and the Second O2 sensor. Can't Wait! Looks beautiful.
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I've been playing around with the header design program for a while, and have come up with a few trends:

Primary pipe diameter changes by less than .25" thickness, which would seem to make fabrication difficult.

Primary pipe length is around 32". I assume that this is primarily for exhaust pulses, which can be reduced by a factor of 2, 3,4, etc. The difference being how many times the pulse wave travels the length of the pipe.

I just wanted to note that the only header with primary pipes anywhere near that length was the ES equal length (non-shorty), and the ractive 4-1. The AWR looks like it has 8-10 inch primaries, and narrow collectors.

Comments?
 
iluvmacs said:
I've been playing around with the header design program for a while, and have come up with a few trends:

Primary pipe diameter changes by less than .25" thickness, which would seem to make fabrication difficult.

Primary pipe length is around 32". I assume that this is primarily for exhaust pulses, which can be reduced by a factor of 2, 3,4, etc. The difference being how many times the pulse wave travels the length of the pipe.

I just wanted to note that the only header with primary pipes anywhere near that length was the ES equal length (non-shorty), and the ractive 4-1. The AWR looks like it has 8-10 inch primaries, and narrow collectors.

Comments?
With thickness, you're going to have to go with the closest piping to the desired thickness you want. If it calls for 1.8" Primaries, go with 1.75".

Primary length on my application is 36". This can't be reduced by factors. The only reason it's ever shorter, is because of space constraints. If you want a tuned length header, you have to go with the stated result. Remember exhaust 'pulses' travel at 340 m/s, and you want them to happen one at a time as the enter the collector, so that the negative wave travels up the other primaries in enough time to pull the exhaust charge out of the next opening exhaust valve.

Another reason most headers are shorter besides space/price, is because they want a bolt-on piece. With a custom header, there is no 'down pipe', since the collector is far enough back to almost touch the cat. In my case, I may have to move my cat back some, so I can still use a flex pipe. As it sits, if I wanted to use a flex pipe with my custom header, the collected would directly attach to the flex pipe, which would directly attach to the cat. I wouldn't even have room for fittings or brackets. Also, with imports, they try to avoid using 4-1 headers because they're stacked, rather than side by side as a 4-2-1, because of the undercar space. They know most people lower their car, and having almost 4" of stacked piping under the engine isn't always feasable. But with 4-2-1 headers you lose the 'tuned' advantage of a proper 4-1 design.
 
The 4-2-1 is just the 4cyl version of the old Doug Thorley tri-Y v-8 headers. They are supposed to promote a broad torque range.
 
PR5Matt said:
The 4-2-1 is just the 4cyl version of the old Doug Thorley tri-Y v-8 headers. They are supposed to promote a broad torque range.
I call them Tri-Ys myself, but not everyone knows the reference. They do promote a broad torque range, and can be less peaky than a 4-1. But chances are, a well designed 4-1 can make almost as much low RPM power as a Tri-Y, but peak HP is no comparison. 4-1s make substantially more up top....
 
I think that the AWR primaries are longer than 10". Although i have to say that the AWR 421 has a different design than the probe/ebay 421. The AWR has the primaries merge into the side of the pipe whereas the probe/ebay has seperate collectors that merge 2-1 than 2-1. Why is there that difference? and what are the advantages of each. I will find pics to demonstrate.
here is what i mean
AWRHeader1smal.jpg

hdr_probe93c_evo.jpg
 
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Gen1GT said:
I call them Tri-Ys myself, but not everyone knows the reference. They do promote a broad torque range, and can be less peaky than a 4-1. But chances are, a well designed 4-1 can make almost as much low RPM power as a Tri-Y, but peak HP is no comparison. 4-1s make substantially more up top....
I agree. You should see my beautiful 1 3/4"-1 7/8" step primary ceramic coated Bassini long tubes for the 'Stang. I can't wait to put 'em in! I just got them 3 weeks ago. Much better than the Mac 1 3/4" headers.
 
I am actually glad that my Mustang headers are individual slip-fit tubes. They are a pain in the ass to install otherwise.
 
That probe header seems nice, and the price is nice too. What kind of modification needs to be done for the egr?
 
it needs to be moved...also u need a new midpipe to the 2nd cat...hangers need to be changed too. tonkabui has one. However what are the advantages power/powerband/throttle response wise between the AWR and probe
 
I bought the EVOVECTOR Header on EBAY on Tuesday and arrived just this Saturday. As a visual I can see that of course the EGR valve bung will have to be moved, and a second O2 sensor bung will have to be added. Also probably the hangers will be moved as well or even removed and use the stock hangers. I am going to buy a High Flow Cat to stay sort of compliant in case I move to another city. I will try to make a how to on this header with pics. I need to charge the battery to my Digi Cam. I am planning on installing it this Wed or Thurs. I'll let you guys know.
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Let us know if its more cost effective than getting the AWR. I'd rather support a protege parts manufacturer, but not for twice the cost. That is, unless the probe header doesn't perform well, or if it's too costly to get all the hangers and bungs rewelded.
 
Well for me it might be cuz I plan on doing most of it myself. I think the header EGR bung I will leave it to the Experienced. But evrything else should be a breeze, for me that is.
 
Back from the dead...

Alright so I am bringing this thread back from the dead because it is one of the best ones I've found in the NA section, and wanted to add some knowledge to it (via asking questions and having people chime in) as opposed to just starting another thread, especially since my goals for the car are modest and fit well with the discussions that have gone on in this thread. Unfortunately it seems as though a few of the guru's haven't been around in the last few months, but hopefully the ones still remaining can still help me with my question.

Here goes: I'm in the midst of my modding, and have come accross a great thread for some much cheaper then usual parts: http://www.mazdas247.com/forum/showthread.php?t=123683481.
Now I am going to get the full set of pulleys because it is such an insane deal, however I am undecided about the adjustable cam gears. I'll first list what I have mods-wise and you can guys can chime in on whether it would be worth it (considering the price, otherwise I wouldn't give it a second thought) or not.

- I have an MP3, so I already have the MP3 ECU, and the VTCS removal
- RB catback (the 2.375" ID aftermarket one)
- custom j-midpipe with a high flow cat (getting made next spring)
- Wagner shorty header (before someone flames me for not putting on a header, there are fairly strict emissions laws where I live)
- CAI
- the aforementioned pulleys
- custom ground kit (yes I know I don't get power from it)

My question is: would getting a pair (or only 1, and explain how one would be better then other; exhaust VS intake) of adjustable camgears using STOCK cams bring on any advantage, or would the ~200$ (or 100$ if I only get one) be better spent elsewhere before I start investing in this type of fine tuning?
I know many of you will say to get a jdm intake cam, but I've been told many times (notably by Brian MP5T whom I know personally) that considering the work that should be done to shims, and the added stress to the valvetrain, it is not the wisest idea for someone who wants to mod without breaking the bank.
Also, as many true NA modders will say; there is no point in buying a cam before you are done with the majority of your build since it will be the heart of your engine, due to the effect it has on the engine's breathing. They'll probably also say that I should get one custom ground...which will probably a plan of mine in the future.

So again, my question is should I buy the camgears (and could someone please point me towards a good thread which could help with tuning as I have yet to find a good one with useful info for using cam gears with stock cams) or invest that money elsewhere where it would be used more wisely, such as investing in a piggyback, like the SS AFC.

BTW, some of you may have other suggestions where I could spend this amount of money other then on performance engine parts, so before you make suggestions of parts I could put on the car that I already have, here are the other (present and short term) mods on my car:
- custom filled motor mounts with an AWR front mount
- AXR clunk fix
- beefier endlinks (waiting on Canadian group buy for Hardrace products)
- front lower tie bar (in the mail :))
- AWR trailing links (local buy in the spring)
- GC coilover sleeves
- TWM SS with bushings
- slotted/x-drilled rotors
- KVR performance brake pads
- SS brake/clutch lines (going on in the spring)

All constructive information/suggestions will be most welcome.
Thanks a lot for reading this rather long post, and bring on the good advice :)
 
It really depends on what your goals are.

Even the JDM cam won't cut it for massive power gains (i had the JDM intake, one of the advantages of having the australian version of the car - the thing just wont breathe at high RPM...no matter what you do).

Our stock heads are not flow monsters, and to get them to breathe, you are going to NEED some sort of cam work. Cam gears MAY yield some result but you'd be better off saving your pennies and getting a regrind done on your cams, or getting some aftermarket cams happening. Cams are going to allow you to get alot more potential out of the motor.

I'm running some VERY wild cams (well, wild when compared to what I had...still mild in the grand scheme of things) and theres nothing wrong with the valve train, even at the stretched redline I run.

If you want to get 130whp, its not THAT hard, but you'll need EMS to get you there i fear. I'd be putting your money in that direction. Twilightprotege had around 140hp without touching internals...his mods (performance wise) of note are:

Custom camshafts
AWR header
Port and polished head (matched and CC'd combustion chambers as well)
Port matched intake manifold
Light weight flywheel
light weight UDP
and critically - Microtech engine management.

Given the completely rubbish tune Mazda provide us, an EMS is going to unlock the single largest chunk of power you are going to get without touching the internals of the motor. I've got no idea of the dyno figures for my set up (because i havn't dyno'd it) but Twilight suggested that he gained somewhere in the order of 6 to 8 horsepower over the entire curve....not just at peak. This equates to a massive increase in power, even if the peak doesn't go up overly that much.

In short - don't stick to the stock cams. Don't even CONSIDER the JDM cams if you are serious about making all motor power. Talk to a cam shop, and get something made up (and i'm telling you right now, it'll cost you quite a bit). Altenatively protege garage lists some integral race cams on their site....have a chat to ken and see what he says about them.

JDM cams are fine for mild turbo applications - but will suck the big one if you trying to push air through without assistance.
 
Some very good points here. Lots to make me think about.
I guess this brings me to ask 3 more questions:
1. How much gain can there be from regrinding the stock cams? It seems as though taking anything off would make them worse no? I'm far from knowledgeable when it comes to cams, it just seems as though there wouldn't be much improvement possible.
2. How much more can I gain with a full EMS over a good piggyback?
3. Is there a BIG difference between a piggyback which only controls VS one who also controls timing (please remember I do have the MP3 ECU (which of course came with the car) which is better then the stock one))?
 
In short - don't stick to the stock cams. Don't even CONSIDER the JDM cams if you are serious about making all motor power.

By that, do you mean the J-SPEC 2.0 FS-ZE intake camshaft from Corksport?

Thanks.
 
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