How hard is it to get to VICS?

[pasadena_commut]

With all of the "loose VICS screws blew up my car" threads in this forum I'd really like to find out the state of those in my P5 and loctite them on if (necessary) before they cause me any pain.

Now come the questions...

1. Is there a way to check the VICS screws other than by removing the intake manifold? For instance, threading a tool like a colonoscope in through the throttle body after removing just part of the air intake?

2. If that isn't an option how hard is it to remove the intake manifold? Is there a HOWTO with pictures for this somewhere? If it only requires a socket set and screw drivers I might be game, but if it needs air tools or something else specialized then I'd rather have a pro do it.

3. Any idea what a mechanic (not the Mazda dealer!) might charge to do this?

4. Anybody know why the VICS screws fall out but not the VTCS screws? From the few pictures I've seen they look like they might be the same screws.

If this isn't too expensive or too much work it would be worth it for the piece of mind in knowing that a stupid little screw won't be blowing up the motor 5 days after the warranty expires.

Thanks.

 

[blynd_spy]

1. sorry not doable

2. probably a how-to somewhere on here, havent searched yet myself. Dont think it should be too bad, just time consuming getting everything mounted to it out of the way first and getting to the screws on the bottom side

3. you probably dont want to know, maybe warranty?!?..

4. dont know why they fall out but the VTCS screws have about an 1/8" head that protrudes above the bar that the butterflys are attached while the VICS screws are inset with the bar holding the flys

If you need any pics let me know I have my spare intake manifold sittin right next to me. Just ask and ill do my best

 

[peepsalot]

It's a pain in the ass to remove the intake manifold, but it can be done with a basic set of sockets and extensions. Having all the proper extensions is key for getting to all 7 bolts that hold the face of the manifold on. And when putting it back on, you gotta be careful not to overtorque the bolts, only 12-14ft-lbs IIRC. The EGR pipe removal is the hardest part of it, I nearly gave up because of it.

Flat black made a how-to for people that are removing VTCS, but the parts about removing the manifold should be the same. Also, Turfburn @ NSN motorsports has a how to for installing their thermal spacers that is basically the same deal.

 

[pasadena_commut]

3. you probably dont want to know, maybe warranty?!?..

I already asked the local dealer about this. They'll fix it if it blows up but won't do anything to keep it from blowing up. Methinks somebody did the math and figured they'd come out ahead by repairing all those cars that blew up after the warranty expired.

4. dont know why they fall out but the VTCS screws have about an 1/8" head that protrudes above the bar that the butterflys are attached while the VICS screws are inset with the bar holding the flys

If you need any pics let me know I have my spare intake manifold sittin right next to me. Just ask and ill do my best

Are the screws the same diameter and length? A picture of both side by side might be helpful, if your camera can focus in that tight, along with a ruler for scale.

If the VICS are the little metric bolts with conical heads and the conical holes they are set into are not at quite the right angle (larger angle) then the heads would make almost no contact. If that happens there's no friction from the head and the screw would have an easier time backing out. Especially since when that valve opens at 5000+ rpm there must be a fair amount of turbulence from the air passing over the butterfly. When the butterfly is open and air is passing over it will the screw head be in the airstream?
Conversely, if the VTCS screws are flat on the bottom then when they are torqued down they might grind into the metal tightly enough to lock the screw in place.

Or it could be something as simple as one being coated with oil before insertion and the other not. Or um, one being the same material as the butterfly and the other not, so that there are thermal expansion issues.

 

[blynd_spy]

heres some close up pics of a VICS valve. The screws are pretty tight, if you didnt have the exact size phillips bit you could most likely strip it out, didnt want to try too hard just for that reason.

Removed the VTCS system so only have the one picture of that screw. The six outside screws were not at all hard to remove, the two screws in the middle (stripped in the picture) i could only get out via vice grips, but you can see how far the head sticks out.

 

[blynd_spy]

I could see a VTCS screw falling out for sure. They seem to be of softer metal and take more air flow than the VICS especially 5000+ rpm. As for the VICS screws falling out, i just dont understand why it happens. They are in there pretty tight and hang a bit out the other side. I havent read too many threads on the VICS system notingly the VICS/VTCS Screw List i see popping up a lot.

 

[pasadena_commut]

Thanks for the pictures!

As for the VICS screws falling out, i just dont understand why it happens. They are in there pretty tight and hang a bit out the other side.

Just to be clear - are you saying that the hole for the VICS screw passes all the way through the valve plate, so that the shaft of the VICS screw extends past both surface planes of the valve? That's hard to see in the picture but I guess would make sense given that the valve plate isn't very thick.

If that's the case, when the valve is closed isn't there a net force on the screw: lower pressure on the screw head pulling up and a positive pressure (relative) on the "point" side pushing in? If the screw for whatever reason became "not tight" wouldn't those forces tend to move the screw out of the hole? Throw in some high frequency motor vibration to jiggle the screw and, ugh!

I wonder if a dab of loctite on the part protruding through the plate would be enough to keep the screws in. Then one wouldn't have to loosen the screws that are not loose. Any Mazda techs reading this? When you're fixing a motor that's been the victim of a VICS screw what do you do to ensure that the replacement screw doesn't also fall out?

Now that I see it the assembly seems backwards. I would have designed it so that the screws went through the plate into the support, with the screw heads being on the "upwind" side of the plate when the valve was closed.

 

[Salmon_Rob]

it isnt the vics screw that comes out, its VTCS

 

[Johnnybass]

it isnt the vics screw that comes out, its VTCS

beat me, damn-it

through reading previous threads about this, the common misconception is that the VICS screws are falling out...like silver03p5 said, its the VTCS screws that are falling out...take note

 

[Salmon_Rob]

also VICS = very good, i.e. dont remove VICS
VTCS = very bad, remove by all means

 

[NRRfrogmanP5]

so this is the rattling noise that i hear as i let of the gas and sounds like something is rattling back and forth

 

[Foolish]

Just so I'm sure I understand, are both of these systems on all 2.0 N/A Protege motors, of all years?

 

[pasadena_commut]

it isnt the vics screw that comes out, its VTCS

Compare the picture of the VICS from earlier in the thread to that in the "Sue Mazda?" thread:

http://www.msprotege.com/forum/showthread.php?t=115948

It sure looks like the VICS is messed up in the "Sue Mazda?" thread.

That doesn't mean that the VTCS screws can't come out too.

 

[Salmon_Rob]

the first set of runners, which that is, is the VTCS

 

[peepsalot]

the first set of runners, which that is, is the VTCS

(scratch) what are you saying? Was that a question?

 

[Salmon_Rob]

im saying that what broke on that car is the VTCS, not vics as he seemed to be implying. the first set is VTCS, which is used to help control cold start emmisions. VICS is the actual awesome one, that makes one fastar

 

[peepsalot]

doooooood.

The pics in the Sue Mazda thread are of VICS. The pics that blynd_spy posted are (in order of appearance): VICS, VICS, VICS, and VTCS.

 

[Salmon_Rob]

sorry, i was looking at it like it was rightside up. my bizad

 

[pasadena_commut]

the first set of runners, which that is, is the VTCS

Let's all get on the same page here.

Both sets of pictures (this thread and the "Sue Mazda?" thread cited above) show two rows of holes: one row of circular holes and one row of oblong holes. From my reading of the comments with these pictures these are:

circular == VICS
oblong == VTCS

Is that right or wrong?

 

[peepsalot]

Correct.

The VTCS butterflies are at the edge of the manifold where it meets the head.

The VICS are inside the manifold which has to be taken apart into it's two halves to get to.