how do i lower a p5 with out losing handeling

[HondaToMazda]

See for yourself.

http://www.jic-magic.com/productsjic_susp_flta2.htm

JIC uses nothing from Ground Control No sleeves involved, the shock bodies are threaded. Camber plates incorporated into the design. No comparison

Another look:

So you have thos on your Car Wshade? How do they handle? Its pretty impressive on the Mono Tube Design and being at a $1,500 price range. Do you know any specs on them?

 

[Jliao]

Springs are almost all the same. If the springs are 20 - 35% stiffer which in most cases they typically are. You always should get after market Struts that will be able to handle the spring rates. If you are looking to race the car, it is always better to get struts that are able to be ReValved even if they are cheaper. Struts get expensive they are not like a shock.

I'm confused... I think you quoted the wrong person.

 

[WShade]

So you have thos on your Car Wshade? How do they handle? Its pretty impressive on the Mono Tube Design and being at a $1,500 price range. Do you know any specs on them?

They handle really well, I run them 3-5 clicks off full soft which gives me the best off both worlds when it come to comfort and performance. The only specs I have are on the web site , sorry.

 

[Installshield 2]

Hmmm How can you say "but you cannot seperately adjust spring rate from ride height, meaning the more you lower the car, the more the spring rate increase" Hmmm... Hypercoil Offers 2.5" ID springs 14" springs that have the same spring rate as opposed to 4".... Ride Height is changed... Would you just want to change out your spring if you wanted to increase Spring Rate? Ride Height has nothing to do with Spring Rates. Please explain yourself?
"I have never in my life recommended stock strut utilizing coil-over setups like Ground controls or Skunk 2's...they are absolute s*** for the stock struts...I am not trying to get flamed, but the only real benefit these things offer is massive drops..."

Hmmm... Massive Drop? Hmmm.. Coil-Overs were not designed so you can make your car look as low you want. As far as it doesn't give you the ride height for the best handling purposes? So why would you say not to recommend Coil-Over kits to anyone? You just said it yourself

"You need to find how much of drop you want" how will you do that if you don't have a coil-over sleeve or a coil-over on a threaded body? Buy 4 springs before you say ohhhh thats what i want?

" I will next purchase some Tokico Illuminas to control the rebound... " Why would you want to buy Struts that aren't able to ReValve... So you would rather spend more money and buy new struts to get the same valving after the shocks are blown?

Ok I in the middle of homework so i need to make this quick, sorry...

First, I will use fixed spring rate springs like the Teins for this...Progressive spring rates will make this involve more math and make it difficult to explain...

Spring rates refer to the amount of force, usually in pounds or kilograms, it takes to compress the spring...A 200 lb/in spring takes 200 lbs to compress one inch, another 200lbs to compress another inch (so 400lbs to compress 2 inches) etc...sleeves and collars that compress the spring a certain amount (to achieve a drop at nuetral) INCREASE spring stiffness imensely...hopefully you can see how that happens...If the spring is 200lb/in rate completely uncompressed, and then compressed 2inches to achieve a 2" drop the spring is much stiffer than if a 1/2" drop is used...this is all for arguments sake, the spring will be compressed once installed regardless so it will become harder to compress, but the more the spring is compressed by devices like GC's to achieve more of ride height drop, it will become much stiffer and be much harder for the struts to deal with...

This is the main difference between the Tein SS's and JIC FLT -2's...the teins are threaded so that in order to change ride height the spring is compressed more or realesed more...directly affecting the springs overall stiffness (in a case such as this, or with GC coilovers or skunk 2's, ride height and spring stiffness are directly related)...the JIC's (look at the pic) have seperate threading for ride height by adjusting the lower knuckle...ajdusting that will have no effect on the spring's stiffness becuase it does not change the compression of the spring...with the JIC's you can also change the springs stiffness behavior by adjusting the upper spring perch, which is also threaded....With a system like this you can dial in the dampening rates of the strut body, the spring stiffness (the rate doesn't change which is confusing, but the above paragraph hopefully explains that) without adjusting ride height...you can dial that in completely seperately for appearance or center of gravity issues...

I do not recommend coil over kits like GC's or SKunk2's...meaning I don't recommend kits that utilize the stock struts...I do recommend "real" coil-over kits that are a complete system, utilizing a complete strut body, spring and perches specifically designed for each other, to anyone that has the money...Even Tein SS are crippled for racing purposes (becuase in order to increase spring stiffness travel must be decrease, which will be bad for different track) but they are much better than GC's married to stock struts becuase the Tein shocks are very adjustable, enough to be able to handle ridiculous spring stiffness on a heavily lowered protege...Lower a protege 3" with stock struts and GC's, and the stock strut dampening will never be able to handle it...

I am completely lost on what you mean by revalve? The tockico illminas have adjustable internal valving that allows adjustable dampening? is that what you were reffering to? They are definately not as soft as the stock struts even on the softest dampening setting...If you meant rebuilt or revalved after they detriorate you are correct they can't be...but they will easily last 100,000 more miles with my current springs...Most full coil over kits are rebuildable, being that being designed for racing purposes in which massive loads are handled on a regular basis...racing takes it's toll on suspension parts very quickly, and if they can be rebuilt it can save a lot of money through a race year...

alright dude, i gotta go...I hope that helped to explain what i meant better...

 

[Mad Ryan]

Just thought I'd weigh in on suspension theory here...

I studied this stuff while in engineering at Oregon State because I ride motorcycles. While you may or may not "feel" an adjustment in your car's suspension, you will feel one in your bike. I have been revalving bike suspension for years so I thought I'd let you guys in on some secrets.

1) Progressive springs are s***. If somebody ever tries to sell you on progressive springs they don't know anything about suspension. What happens is that with a linear spring, as Installshield so eloquently explained, you don't change the spring rate as the spring compresses. With Progressive springs, this is not the case. What this means in the real world is that with a linear spring your rebound valving can be tailored to fit your spring rate/preload and will be accurate throughout it's whole range of movement. With progressive springs this is not the case. The valving will only fit the spring for one brief instant in the spring's compression. Any spring that is inconsistently wound is progressive.

2) Preload is a crappy way to set ride height. Again, as Installshield said, if you are setting your preload to get your ride height, as with a coilover, what you're doing is preloading the spring. What this does is raises the force threshold to get the suspension moving. In addition it makes the spring slam the suspension home harder; forcing you to run heavier rebound damping. If you have adjustable rebound damping this isn't a problem, if you don't, you're hosed.

3) Adjusting suspension is not rocket science. On a motorcycle I do it in 3 steps.

A) Set sag: This only applies if you have coilovers. What you do is measure each wheel position with no load on the wheel and again with the wheel loaded. The difference is the sag. Your preload is going to be what you're adjusting here. Ideal numbers should be about 25% of total travel in sag. This allows the wheels to travel down as well as up.

B) Set Rebound: Important! If you have it, set your Compression to full soft. You have to set rebound to the spring rate. Rebound damping will never change after it's set as long as you don't mess with you're spring rates or preload. In a purpose built system (JIC's) the rebound valving is going to be designed to correspond to the springs that are chosen for your car. You should then be able to adjust the amount of oil that flows through the valve to account for preload. Rebound damping, simply put, controls the speed at which your suspension returns to equilibrium after you hit a bump. If your have massive springs and wimpy stock dampers than you may as well not have dampers. Those springs are going to tear your valving all up. Provided your damping is purpose built to your spring selection then adjusting your damping is a relatively simple thing. Pick a relatively bumpy section of road and drive up and down over it at different speeds making notes of how the car handles bumps. If it wallows as it returns to equilibrium then you need more damping. If it seems to skip off the back sides of the bumps then you need less damping. It's that simple.

C) Set Compression: I'm not up to speed on what is available for cars but many motorcycles come with 3 way adjustable suspension. In fact, some of the really high end stuff (Penske, Ohlins) feature independent high and low speed compression adjustability. This means that you can set your bike up for both bumpy and smooth tracks without messing with your suspension. No more compromise! People identify compression damping as "firm" feel as it controls how fast the shock or strut compresses. This is a fairly subjective thing but on a whole, you don't want your suspension to bottom out easily yet you don't want it to compress to slowly. This is the one control that is going to change with road conditions. Once you set them, sag and rebound are set in stone, but if you drive a certain set of roads that are bumpier than others then your may want to back off your compression a bit before leaving and take whatever you need to do it on the road till you get the hang of it.