EMS solutions for the MSP

[Spooled]

Point taken. I can never really see myself using all the features of a standalone on my MSP, that's for sure. I will probably end up with MPI or Emanage in the end. I'm pushing towards MPI just because of the support base, and having Nick on the boards is a huge plus.

Nick, I do have one question for you about your recommended MPI setup: Why do you use extra injectors instead of bigger injectors? I know that most people do that because it's guarenteed to have good idle and smooth drivability, but aren't some of the Lucas disc style injectors good for the full range of duty? Also, what about WRX's and such that come standard with 440's? Most piggybacks come with a global injector scale function, so I would assume that you could just throw 440's into a Protege and set the injector scale inside the software to accommodate. Or am I missing something important here?

The reason why I'm curious is because I'm sort of anal about doing things as efficiently as possible. I'd rather have 4 injectors that can feed enough fuel rather than coating the walls of the TB with wasted fuel. I may be thinking about this wrong since I don't really have any experience with extra-injector setups. I'm one of those people that want power, but want to do it in the most efficient way. I really only plan on 230-250whp at the absolute max (maybe have a high-octane/boost tune for rare occasions), but will probably be closer to 210-220whp 95% of the time because I will have a road course setup, not drag.

 

[Spooled]

I just found this page. It's actually really cool and may be useful for people reading this thread:

http://not2fast.wryday.com/turbo/glossary/turbo_calc.shtml

 

[Black Majik MSP]

OK, I finally have time to fix this thread. I will try to include everything that has been discussed.

 

[MPNick]

Why do you use extra injectors instead of bigger injectors? I know that most people do that because it's guarenteed to have good idle and smooth drivability ,Most piggybacks come with a global injector scale function, so I would assume that you could just throw 440's into a Protege and set the injector scale inside the software to accommodate.

The reason why I'm curious is because I'm sort of anal about doing things as efficiently as possible. I'd rather have 4 injectors that can feed enough fuel rather than coating the walls of the TB with wasted fuel. I may be thinking about this wrong since I don't really have any experience with extra-injector setups. I'm one of those people that want power, but want to do it in the most efficient way. I really only plan on 230-250whp at the absolute max (maybe have a high-octane/boost tune for rare occasions), but will probably be closer to 210-220whp 95% of the time because I will have a road course setup, not drag.

Yes you can scale for bigger injectors. The 440 WRX will run in the Protege. It will not be 100%. If you look at the WRX or the STI intake you can see the lower intake is almost 80% closed around the injectors. They have all of the airflow running into a very small part of the port. This will keep the air speed up to a higher speed then it would ever see without it. The higher the speed the better the fuel mix. I know this for a fact. We did a 2005 STI with a aftermarket lower intake system. The tumble valve are not there so you now have a big port. The new lower intake comes with cast in extra injector ports. That is the great thing about this setup. The bad thing about this setup is now that the tumble valves are gone the car has lost its great idle. The stock injectors are still there.

The Protege also has a odd voltage range for the MAF. 1.8 to 5.0. Most cars start around .8 and go to 5.0. If you run bigger injector you will have to run the voltage down around 1.0 volts. You will then get a code for MAP to low. Also with the lower settings when you do your cold start the PCM is looking for over 2.0 volts.

As for the TBI extra injectors. We have over ten people on this forum who have been running this set up, some for over a year. No one has lost a plug, fouled or burnt, a head gasket. There have been no washed out cylinder walls. Any of the problem that people talked about a year or more about has never been seen. Even we I did Deans monster motor last year I kept the TBI just to prove my point about them work right. To date no one has dynoed within 35whp of Deans car. So while some people still talk about it being a problem it has never happend. It just cannot puddle fuel in the TB at boost pressure. Maybe at none boost levels it can happend because air speed is much lower, but at boost.

You can always try the 440s and see how they work for you, you may luck them. If not you can always add the extra injector later on.

 

[Spooled]

Cool, that helps a lot!

Here is one other thing that I was toying with. I want to use a GM blow-through MAF instead of the stock setup. Can the MPI compensate for that? Also, you mentioned that the PCM is looking for over 2 volts during a cold start. I assume that you mean the larger injectors could possibly spit too much gas and flood it in this situation. If the MPI was setup to see the correct voltage range of the GM blow-through, could it fix any odd problems like that? Would you recommend working with a MAP sensor instead? It seems that the stock MAf gets maxed out too easily, and I'd really like to figure out all my options before I start getting stuff.

Thanks for the help!

Edit: I live in Michigan, so cold weather is an issue for me

 

[MPNick]

Cool, that helps a lot!

Here is one other thing that I was toying with. I want to use a GM blow-through MAF instead of the stock setup. Can the MPI compensate for that? Also, you mentioned that the PCM is looking for over 2 volts during a cold start. I assume that you mean the larger injectors could possibly spit too much gas and flood it in this situation. If the MPI was setup to see the correct voltage range of the GM blow-through, could it fix any odd problems like that? Would you recommend working with a MAP sensor instead? It seems that the stock MAf gets maxed out too easily, and I'd really like to figure out all my options before I start getting stuff.

Thanks for the help!

Edit: I live in Michigan, so cold weather is an issue for me

No the voltage will be to low at cold start. So we run to lean.

We have larger MAF meters. Both are based on Fords meters. Deans car has been running our 80mm through type. Little Beavis has been running our blow through meter. Both meters will not max out until over 450whp. The G-M meter will not work on our cars. Great question on the meters. Most people do not understand that the stock meter will cost them power at higher boost levels. Please let me know if you have anymore.

 

[TurfBurn]

I'm 90% sure Beavis is still on the stock MAF for one reason or another... but not 100% sure

 

[TurfBurn]

still bumping to get the Microtech on that first page

The one thing it does that none of the others do... NO need for a laptop

 

[Focus]

No the voltage will be to low at cold start. So we run to lean.

We have larger MAF meters. Both are based on Fords meters. Deans car has been running our 80mm through type. Little Beavis has been running our blow through meter. Both meters will not max out until over 450whp. The G-M meter will not work on our cars. Great question on the meters. Most people do not understand that the stock meter will cost them power at higher boost levels. Please let me know if you have anymore.

If I am not mistaken the GM MAF is not even a voltage output. I believe it is a frequency output.

 

[MPNick]

If I am not mistaken the GM MAF is not even a voltage output. I believe it is a frequency output.

Thanks why it will not work.

 

[Spooled]

Yep, but DSM guys have been using them with a common GM MAF translator. I guess it gives them the airflow that they want, plus allows them to vent. I really don't give a shyte about venting, but I like the idea of having the sensor 18" from the throttle body without worrying about problems with pressure, oil, or turbulance. Added bonuses are that you can open vent BOV (for getting rid of lots of pressure fast), and you can have more creative intake systems.

I just thought I'd see if there was a way to do it, or a good reason not to. You guys are the experts!

 

[MPNick]

Yep, but DSM guys have been using them with a common GM MAF translator. I guess it gives them the airflow that they want, plus allows them to vent. I really don't give a shyte about venting, but I like the idea of having the sensor 18" from the throttle body without worrying about problems with pressure, oil, or turbulance. Added bonuses are that you can open vent BOV (for getting rid of lots of pressure fast), and you can have more creative intake systems.

I just thought I'd see if there was a way to do it, or a good reason not to. You guys are the experts!

On the 400whp monster we are building right now, we are running a 80mm MAF that we have customer calibrated for us.

Yes you need to be careful about how you do things with a MAF.

 

[Spooled]

How accurate is an 80mm MAF? I know that it will still go from 0-5V, but is it precise enough to use a 32x32 (~0.156 volts) or 64x64 (~0.078 volts) map for tuning? I know that not all MAF sensors are the same, and I also know that not all are linear. The reason that I'm asking is because I'm a little concerned about using a 16x16 map for tuning a fuel curve.

 

[TurfBurn]

Which EMS are you looking at for 32x32 or higher? Keep in mind there are mathematical ways to achiever better results with less data points.

 

[peepsalot]

Which EMS are you looking at for 32x32 or higher? Keep in mind there are mathematical ways to achiever better results with less data points.

Interpolation owns. I don't know what ems system do that with their maps though...

 

[DSMConvert]

on the dsm note, yes we have been using GM MAFs forever with the translators...The only real positive gain is that it allows us to flow an ass load more air than our tiny stock setup mafs...to be quite honest though MAFs are old school technology, MAP is the way to go with turbo setups. We've actually been toying around with the idea of eliminating the mazda maf all together and using an integrate map sensor. On the N/A note, you guys should be mainly interested in timing control when considering different units. Having built my own N/A then turbo converted FSDE, I've had a lot of experience with the fuel and timing maps and mazda actually did a decent job on the air/fuel end of the ecu...timing changes, especially with some nice cames will net you the biggest gains from a unit. Turf burn I'm not so sure you're right on the mathematical note....more data points will always give you the better results..the theory of interpolation states that the equation derived is only going to be as accurate as the data provided, thus more points, more accuracy.

 

[TurfBurn]

Interpolation owns. I don't know what ems system do that with their maps though...

Well the Microtech interpolates with a 32 bit processor... so no worries there .

 

[TurfBurn]

Turf burn I'm not so sure you're right on the mathematical note....more data points will always give you the better results..the theory of interpolation states that the equation derived is only going to be as accurate as the data provided, thus more points, more accuracy.

I wasn't saying that more points wasn't better, but I'm saying it can be compensated for to an extent. MOST portions of maps are reasonably linear between data points. I see my original post wasn't clear. I was saying that a 16x16 interpolated map can come close to or exceed a 32x32 point stepped map. But the Microtech is a little more sophisticated than linear and actually does curve fitting to smooth out it's responses. So it doesn't just connect the dots, it interprets the flow... it works VERY well to compensate for lower resolution areas... but for what it is worth... the Microtech can be configured to a user defineable number of points. So whatever you want you can get.

 

[Spooled]

Yes, bezier curves would be ideal. Then you could simply add key frames/points where they are needed, then adjust the weighting of the curve points. In the end, the CPU would just plug the x variable into the bezier function and get the value.

 

[Spooled]

Which EMS are you looking at for 32x32 or higher? Keep in mind there are mathematical ways to achiever better results with less data points.

Not sure. That's my point. I was just wondering why they all limit themselves. It reminds me of the Y2K problem... 2 digits instead of 4. Storage space isn't an issure anymore, and the lookup speed on a 32x32 or larger table shouldn't be, either.