Easiest route for turbo MP3?

[92 GSR-4]

Hey guys, let me introduce myself first. I'm an experienced DSM tuner, owning about 8 DSMs, building 7 engines, etc. I'm experienced with many different piggy back tuning (afc II, GM Maf translator), as well as some semi stand alone systems (DSMlink on my DD, Megasquirt).

I have a buddy who wants to turbo his MP3. I'm really recommending he try to find a factory turbo engine he can swap in with an ECU so that he doesn't have to worry too much about tuning systems. He is not experienced at all with any type of modding, and I don't have the time to teach him. I fear that if he were to put a low-boost turbo system on his existing motor, he would have issues with fuel management, detonation, etc. Especially since we are both military and are moving to different climates. Adjusting the tune on my DSM is easy for me, but for him to have to tune his MP3 I think it would turn into a disaster.

Having said that, are there any mazdaSpeed engines that are bolt-in? From searching these forums, using a Mazda Protege ECU seems to be about the only thing swappable. I'm looking for a factory turbo engine/trans/ecu that would keep everything stock running and that he could upgrade the intake/exhaust system to make more power instead of worrying a whole lot about tuning. Thanks,

Seth

 

[blueprotegelx]

the msp and mp3 as well as dx/lx/es are all the same motors. i think the msp trans comes with a better clutch setup and differential. In order to turbo his car it is best to either get a standalone or an msp ecu and tune from there.

 

[92 GSR-4]

By MSP I'm assuming you mean the MazdaSpeed Protege. From what I gather, the MP3 and MazdaSpeed Protege both have a 2.0L, 9.1:1 compression, and 83mm bore x 92mm stroke. This makes me believe the only differences between the motors are perhaps some camshaft/camsprings, intake manifold, and cylinder head designs....and of course the turbo kit.

Is this correct? If so, it sounds like a MSP turbokit, ecu, and maybe some injectors will do the trick.

Thanks for the help!

 

[protojason]

I'm not the expert to ask, however here's my understanding of it coming from me wishing to someday turbo my p5.

The MSP ecu will take care of the timing issue/fuel problem on his mp3. (at stock boost).

The p5/mp3/msp have the same engines. (mp3 gets more hp from it's ecu's advanced timing, requiring premium fuel), msp gets more hp from the turbo, and it's ecu controls fuel/timing etc for the turbo setup, again premium fuel)...then theres me with the p5.

In lieu of buying a stand alone engine management system, many people who turbo their p5/mp3 use the MSP ecu to handle fuel/timing etc, and then bolt on all the parts from a msp turbo kit directly. (fine for stock/low boost/avoiding the zoom zoom boom club)

Those who wish to make more power will have to have supporting mods/stand alone engine management.

So, to get that mp3 turbo'd in the simplist fashion, you treat it just like i'd would treat my p5. . . look for a stock msp turbo kit and intercooler, and ecu to handle the fuel. (i know theres something different in the size of the radiators between p5/msp. . . might have something to do with intercooler being side mount?)

I'm sure folks will correct any of my misconceptions.

In closing, a useful link for you.

http://www.mazdas247.com/forum/showthread.php?t=123727772&highlight=turbo+thread&page=2

-jason

 

[CulRidr]

^all of the above is correct, with the only exception being that the MP3 has a "better" intake manifold then the other Protegs since it doesn't have the 2nd set of butterfly valves (VTCS), which helps with flow.

 

[zoomin MP3]

By MSP I'm assuming you mean the MazdaSpeed Protege. From what I gather, the MP3 and MazdaSpeed Protege both have a 2.0L, 9.1:1 compression, and 83mm bore x 92mm stroke. This makes me believe the only differences between the motors are perhaps some camshaft/camsprings, intake manifold, and cylinder head designs....and of course the turbo kit.

Is this correct? If so, it sounds like a MSP turbokit, ecu, and maybe some injectors will do the trick.

Thanks for the help!

The intake manifold and exhaust cam are different between the MP3 and Mazdaspeed as far as the "engine" is concerned. As stated before, yes, you'll have to make sure that if you get an MSP kit with the side mount intercooler, you'll need the matching (shorter) radiator to replace the stock one on the MP3. You won't need to change injectors unless you plan to boost over 18lbs. A simple piggy back like the Split Second TFC could also be used instead of the MSP ECU. If you stick with the MP3 ECU you'll need to have something there to retard timing as well as moderate increased fuel.

 

[CulRidr]

^The exhaust cam is NOT different. EVERY SINGLE FS-DE sold in north america has the exact same long block except for the MBSP (associated with the oil return IIRC).
The radiator is narrower (not shorter, just so that there is no confusion), however it is thicker so it is in fact more efficient then the stock one.

And I'm no expert, but 18lbs seems like an awfully high limit before thinking of changing injectors. Could be possible though. How many CCs are the stockers?

 

[808MP5]

iirc I was reading the the stock injectors are 280cc

 

[nullbyte]

yup, 280cc. Don't bother with the MSP ECU. It costs around $350 and most people end up adding a piggyback or standalone anyways because it has bad fuel cut

 

[CulRidr]

^true, but 350$ is the high end of it, a piggyback needs the MSP ecu anyway, and a standalone is a pain (especially for someone like his friend who WON'T know how to use it) and bloody expensive. an MSP ecu with an FCD should be plenty.

 

[zoomin MP3]

^The exhaust cam is NOT different. EVERY SINGLE FS-DE sold in north america has the exact same long block except for the MBSP (associated with the oil return IIRC).
The radiator is narrower (not shorter, just so that there is no confusion), however it is thicker so it is in fact more efficient then the stock one.

And I'm no expert, but 18lbs seems like an awfully high limit before thinking of changing injectors. Could be possible though. How many CCs are the stockers?

I didn't think the exhaust cam was different, but I'd heard from someone (can't remember who) that the MSP did have that one different from the rest of us. My bad.

A local guy here in CO is running peak 17 lbs boost on stock injectors/ECU. When they cranked it up to 19 on the dyno, it started to make some bad noises, but at 17 not running hard very often, he's been fine. Even took it to the track for a few 14 second passes.

 

[Keno1542]

you will need a built motor well before you would need bigger injectors...and for whoever said the msp ecu was 350, where have you been looking? Protegegarage has it for 300...and if you buy it from someone off the forums, it is cheaper than that

 

[CulRidr]

you will need a built motor well before you would need bigger injectors...

(werd)

 

[92 GSR-4]

Thank you for all the replies!

I think the simplest way is to go ahead and buy the MSP ECU and a stock turbo kit. That way all the fuel/timing maps will be in line and, effectively, it will behave as a stock MSP. After that, if he decides to start tuning with a piggyback controller then its up to him. What a relief it is that we dont have to replace cams or anything. That makes it all simple.

I suppose my only questions from here are:

1) Are the oil feed/return lines and coolant lines present on the MP3 for the turbo?

2) Is the ECU plug and play without any issues? Are there any sensors/wires to add? (Such as a knock sensor and turbo model airflow sensor in the DSM's)

3) Any other issues I should know about?


I appreciate the educated responses!

-Seth

 

[CulRidr]

Thank you for all the replies!

I think the simplest way is to go ahead and buy the MSP ECU and a stock turbo kit. That way all the fuel/timing maps will be in line and, effectively, it will behave as a stock MSP. After that, if he decides to start tuning with a piggyback controller then its up to him. What a relief it is that we dont have to replace cams or anything. That makes it all simple.

I suppose my only questions from here are:

1) Are the oil feed/return lines and coolant lines present on the MP3 for the turbo?

2) Is the ECU plug and play without any issues? Are there any sensors/wires to add? (Such as a knock sensor and turbo model airflow sensor in the DSM's)

3) Any other issues I should know about?


I appreciate the educated responses!

-Seth

1. no
2. yes, and you could add a J&S knock sensor, but that isn't necessary
3. consult the MSP section of the boards as that is where all the turbo guys usually go.

I probably missed some things, and others will surely add to what I've written.

 

[MP3Performance]

Thank you for all the replies!

I think the simplest way is to go ahead and buy the MSP ECU and a stock turbo kit. That way all the fuel/timing maps will be in line and, effectively, it will behave as a stock MSP. After that, if he decides to start tuning with a piggyback controller then its up to him. What a relief it is that we dont have to replace cams or anything. That makes it all simple.

I suppose my only questions from here are:

1) Are the oil feed/return lines and coolant lines present on the MP3 for the turbo?

2) Is the ECU plug and play without any issues? Are there any sensors/wires to add? (Such as a knock sensor and turbo model airflow sensor in the DSM's)

3) Any other issues I should know about?


I appreciate the educated responses!

-Seth

Keep in mind that if you plug in the MSP ecu you will get a check engine light. This only happens when you put the MSP ecu in the MP3 because our cars don't have VICS (or something like that) which is a 2nd set of butterfly valves in the intake manifold, which all the other proteges including the MSP have. I'm not sure if this will hurt performance, but it might put the car into "safe mode" regarding the timing and fuel, and it would cause problems if your state requires car inspections or emission testing. I have only once saw something saying that you can put in a resistor or something to put out a false signal, but I don't have any info on that.

Also, if you are are going to get the MSP ecu try to find out which version you are getting. There is the original version and a reflashed version. The original version would probably be better because it uses a more "rich" fuel mixture which would help keep the engine safe. Most MSPs are already flashed, but if you have a choice the unflashed might be better.

If you are making your own turbo setup you dont need to get a j-pipe for the exhaust because the stock j-pipe from the exahst bolts right up. It's not like its an expensive peice, like $30, but is always good to know.

 

[CulRidr]

^The VTCS butterflies is what he wouldn't have (and that's a good thing for flow). There is a fix for the solenoid described somewhere on these forums...

 

[mp3-79bronco]

i figured out the CEL thing so if you ever get to the point you need help getting rid of it i can explain it to you..

 

[Keno1542]

i figured out the CEL thing so if you ever get to the point you need help getting rid of it i can explain it to you..

So the method you used worked? If so, you should post it up so if anybody is searching for the answer later it will be here...just my $.02 though

 

[MP3Performance]

So the method you used worked? If so, you should post it up so if anybody is searching for the answer later it will be here...just my $.02 though

^^agreed. I have been on here for a couple years and have never come across a clear answer to this problem.