miss_steele_msp
Member
- :
- mazdaspeed protege
Here goes. What is heel-toeing?
Debate: downshifting vs. braking
- Thread starter shaitsta
- Start date
its basically braking, and then at the same time you clutch in,
revv match ->downshift and ur slowed down and uve downshifted at the same time.
now just practice and u'll be touge racing XD
I read in a Toyota owner's manual that engine braking draws oil into the combustion chamber by nature of normal negative engine compression. It further said that this will consume oil, but it is normal to do so.
So if you want to burn oil in your combustion chamber, wear your clutch throw out bearing and friction plate, needlessly use your syncros or burn gasoline to match revs just to slow down, go ahead. But brakes don't fade that much unless you're on the track, especially in this beast. Downshifting to engine brake is unnecessary unless its particularily slick outside or you you need to slow down on a hill.
I find the coasting deceleration in the current gear to be sufficient in slow down, and then use the brakes for what they were designed for. Brake pads are cheap regular maintence.
For reference, I decelerate in the current gear, then clutchlessly disengage when idle is reached (the engine and the transmission are completely synced with no torque in either negative or positive direction). The gear lever literally falls out of gear with a stiff breath in any car I've driven at that point.
At lower speeds I use throttle to dissolve any engine torque in either positive or negative direction and clutchlessly disengage the gear I'm in, and coast on friction with minimal braking to stop. I consider the brake pedal to be a hot plate that I can't keep my foot on for more than 3 seconds, to make the rotors live longer.
So if you want to burn oil in your combustion chamber, wear your clutch throw out bearing and friction plate, needlessly use your syncros or burn gasoline to match revs just to slow down, go ahead. But brakes don't fade that much unless you're on the track, especially in this beast. Downshifting to engine brake is unnecessary unless its particularily slick outside or you you need to slow down on a hill.
I find the coasting deceleration in the current gear to be sufficient in slow down, and then use the brakes for what they were designed for. Brake pads are cheap regular maintence.
For reference, I decelerate in the current gear, then clutchlessly disengage when idle is reached (the engine and the transmission are completely synced with no torque in either negative or positive direction). The gear lever literally falls out of gear with a stiff breath in any car I've driven at that point.
At lower speeds I use throttle to dissolve any engine torque in either positive or negative direction and clutchlessly disengage the gear I'm in, and coast on friction with minimal braking to stop. I consider the brake pedal to be a hot plate that I can't keep my foot on for more than 3 seconds, to make the rotors live longer.
happy and angry
Member
The amount of oil drawn up the cylinder wall by vacuum (note: an engine running in vac is normal) is minimal, and normal. You are not operating your throwout bearing in a manner that is abnormal, or holding the clutch in for a long time and keeping it engaged, so additional wear is minimal (it is designed to shift gears, and you are shifting gears with it, my word). A rev-matched down shift isn't going to wear on the friction plate. Operating the shift lever does not engage the synchros in an abnormal manner (again, this is what they are designed to do). You burn less gas in a small throttle blip than you do coasting in neutral (you realize that engine breaking and the deactivation of your fuel injectors is the reason why manuals test ~1 mpg better in for fuel economy?).
Why are these concerns? Why is normal operation of a manual transmission bad? Why do people keep making up reasons to justify this silly idea that engine braking is physically damaging to the vehicle? What are your thoughts on sequential performance automatics that by nature must upshift and downshift through every gear, and which revmatch to downshift through gears for you as you slow down? By your logic are they not burning oil, wearing out the throw out bearing and friction plate, and needlessly engaging the synchros? Why is it that you think the owner's manual would describe these behaviours as normal, and that vehicle manufacturers and engineers would build transmissions (especially sequential boxes) and engines to function this way? Do you think it likely that they are aware of what you deem "unnecessary wear" and are perhaps unconcerned because these components are designed to be used in this way?
Your transmission is designed to last the life of your car. Proper, normal shifting and engine braking is normal operation for these components. You are worrying about nothing. It's the same school of thought as "If I skip shifting into second, I am extending the life of my transmission." No you aren't.
Why are these concerns? Why is normal operation of a manual transmission bad? Why do people keep making up reasons to justify this silly idea that engine braking is physically damaging to the vehicle? What are your thoughts on sequential performance automatics that by nature must upshift and downshift through every gear, and which revmatch to downshift through gears for you as you slow down? By your logic are they not burning oil, wearing out the throw out bearing and friction plate, and needlessly engaging the synchros? Why is it that you think the owner's manual would describe these behaviours as normal, and that vehicle manufacturers and engineers would build transmissions (especially sequential boxes) and engines to function this way? Do you think it likely that they are aware of what you deem "unnecessary wear" and are perhaps unconcerned because these components are designed to be used in this way?
Your transmission is designed to last the life of your car. Proper, normal shifting and engine braking is normal operation for these components. You are worrying about nothing. It's the same school of thought as "If I skip shifting into second, I am extending the life of my transmission." No you aren't.
Silver Ecstasy
Member
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- 11 MS3 Sport
You guys are making me worried that I sometimes use the clutch when downshifting and slowing down with the brakes to engage the lower gear..
Like I'll keep it in gear and use the brakes to slow down. Once the rpms are too low, i'll push the clutch in and downshift, ease back off the clutch while still using the brakes. By the time i've approached the turn, i'll either use that gear or downshift in mid turn one more time with rev-matched assistance. Otherwise, I always rev-match. It's my braking approaches when I do it, or with this slipeery weather, i'll try to stabilize the car better rather than having too much inertia throw the car forward on slippery road.
Like I'll keep it in gear and use the brakes to slow down. Once the rpms are too low, i'll push the clutch in and downshift, ease back off the clutch while still using the brakes. By the time i've approached the turn, i'll either use that gear or downshift in mid turn one more time with rev-matched assistance. Otherwise, I always rev-match. It's my braking approaches when I do it, or with this slipeery weather, i'll try to stabilize the car better rather than having too much inertia throw the car forward on slippery road.
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invertedcharlie
Member
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- 07 Mazdaspeed 3
I was told the same thing by an experience mechanic, engine braking get rid of excess fuel in the motor...
Heel and toe..all day every day...even if I am not using the brakes, when slowing my foot is automatically covering it, as I rotate my heel to blip or use the side of my foot (depends which shoes I have on Piloti's vs. Alpinestars). Now getting a smooth heel and toe, thats an art form, but i have lots of practice...all day every day...you guys should see my ex do it she may just be smoother than me...Siberiankiss here on the protege boards...
If your good and traffic has a good rythm you can usually get away with only using the brakes for the last 50ft or so coming to a stoplight.
Plus when engine braking there is no fuel going into the engine, whereas if you put it in nuetral and idle, there is. Top Gear proved it
I also agree with happy and angry, when the engine is an range of RPM's the oil pressure is higher keeping it better lubricated.
I can't imagine driving any other way.
If your good and traffic has a good rythm you can usually get away with only using the brakes for the last 50ft or so coming to a stoplight.
Plus when engine braking there is no fuel going into the engine, whereas if you put it in nuetral and idle, there is. Top Gear proved it
I also agree with happy and angry, when the engine is an range of RPM's the oil pressure is higher keeping it better lubricated.
I can't imagine driving any other way.
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happy and angry
Member
That's not that big a deal, but you realize you're still adding wear to the clutch by doing that? You can feel the car slow down as you clutch out through the friction point, right? You understand what is happening when you do that? The motor is turning slowly (at or near idle) and you are clutching into gear in a lower gear that wants to be running at a higher RPM, and as you get to the friction point the clutch wears against the flywheel as it brings the motor up to the appropriate RPM for the gear and speed you are moving at. The wear, when braking, happens across a smaller RPM range than just using the clutch because you're braking through the entire manoeuver which brings the speed (and thus the RPM the next gear is going to want to be at) of the vehicle down.
I have never found a need to really do that. I almost always have enough space between me and situations where I have to slow down that I can rev-match downshift and then brake through the gear, and if necessary come off the brake and do it again. I don't know that I'd worry about what you're doing, per se, but you should be aware that doing that is increasing clutch wear even if it is only minimally.
So your downshifting without revmatching to save gas ??
If im approaching a stop I just leave it in gear as i slow down then pop it to neutral. Downshifting may not be bad but it does wear the clutch / engine just as normal driving does. As minimal as this is, I would rather wear the cheap brakes as much as possible than use my clutch / motor.
The engine brakes enough in the gear I was cruising in anyway. Say you are in 4rth just cruise in and your engine should slow you down enough until about 20 mph where you can tap the brakes.
If im approaching a stop I just leave it in gear as i slow down then pop it to neutral. Downshifting may not be bad but it does wear the clutch / engine just as normal driving does. As minimal as this is, I would rather wear the cheap brakes as much as possible than use my clutch / motor.
The engine brakes enough in the gear I was cruising in anyway. Say you are in 4rth just cruise in and your engine should slow you down enough until about 20 mph where you can tap the brakes.
Silver Ecstasy
Member
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- 11 MS3 Sport
Yeah I definitely know it's putting on wear. My logic behind is was, it's ultimately going to happen regardless. Atleast it's not as bad as doing it constantly whenever downshifting like some people do. Realistically, you're gonna use the clutch and it's gonna wear. Hopefully by the time my first clutch replacement EVER happens, i'll be able to learn how to heel-toe.
I only will do it since my right foot will be tied up by braking and slowing the car down, so consequently, i'll have to use the left foot to use the clutch to engage in the gear i'll want or need as soon as i'll be turning.
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happy and angry
Member
Justify this position. Defend the idea that normal driving wear is somehow worse than, uh... normal driving wear, because that's what you just said. Explain how an engine running in vac and generating less heat as a result is something to be avoided but idle or acceleration are not. Defend the idea that an engaged clutch wears on the clutch somehow.
happy and angry
Member
See, if more people thought this way, people wouldn't be trying to do bizarre logical gymnastics to come up with the idea "BRAKES ARE CHEAPER." The clutch is a wear component on the car. Don't abuse it, try to minimize wear, and it will last the life of your car.
I know why you do it, I used to have the same problem. I'm generally too big to heel-toe when braking (although I could do it in a '99 Miata... go figure). Over time I've just learned to anticipate traffic better so I don't find myself having to do both, and I make sure to get into the right gear before a turn rather than during a turn. I drive to minimize clutch wear, but I know it will happen so I don't get upset when situations come up where I have to do what you do (or, when they happen, I just clutch in and brake, because they usually only happen at low speed anyway).
Silver Ecstasy
Member
- :
- 11 MS3 Sport
My main obstacle is that I drive 6 miles to work each day, and don't really drive often (Bought in April 08, only have 4300 miles currently). Whenever I do drive, it's through city streets only with a lot of idiot drivers in close quarters, or traffic. So when I have to downshift-rev match, floor it to pass someone to avoid an accident, only to find out i'm coming into my right-hander at the stop light a LITTLE too fast, I'll have to brake and utilize the clutch to properly access the right brake. (I know traffic can be scary in Ottawa too, I have family there and in Hamilton, ON).
I know that brakes are cheaper, but I really don't think you should be utilizing the brakes ONLY to stop the car. As you've eloquently put it, the engine and transmission work together in harmony. Use the brakes, but keep the car in gear.
Automatic transmissions do not fall into Neutral to stop.
And if you only utilize the brakes, you will overheat them after extended stops (or hard stops) in neutral only.
What Happy&Angry is saying is, don't sit and freak out about using the clutch. You will HAVE to use the clutch. Just, don't ride the hell out of it either. Be smart, but don't over complicate things.
I know that brakes are cheaper, but I really don't think you should be utilizing the brakes ONLY to stop the car. As you've eloquently put it, the engine and transmission work together in harmony. Use the brakes, but keep the car in gear.
Automatic transmissions do not fall into Neutral to stop.
And if you only utilize the brakes, you will overheat them after extended stops (or hard stops) in neutral only.
What Happy&Angry is saying is, don't sit and freak out about using the clutch. You will HAVE to use the clutch. Just, don't ride the hell out of it either. Be smart, but don't over complicate things.
I have no idea what your trying to say here. . .
Everytime you engage the clutch whether you are upshifting or downshifting you wear it down a little. The same goes for pretty much anything in a car.
Clutch / Engine = expensive
Brakes = easy / cheaper
Keep in mind when I say brakes I don't mean slam it in nuetral at 60 mph and ride your brakes all the way to stop. I drift in with my car in gear and tap the brakes at around 20 mph. So yes I do let the engine brake but I dont downshift every gear to slow down. . .
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mazdaspeedster3
Member
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- Mazdaspeed3. 2008
Well you should be down shifting to slow down.
If your really good at heel and toe and can match the revs correctly you will not wear hardly anything, if anything at all from the clutch.
Still brakes will always wear faster no matter what. The way I look at it is I heel and toed ALWAYS on my Speed Protege and at 70,000 miles the clutch was still perfect when I got rid of it.
Trust me far more wear occurs when you dump it on a takeoff, or get on the giggle pedal all the way through the rev range and its struggling to keep those 280 ft/lbs restrained.
FACT : Clutch in a F430GT Car in ALMS lasts a whole season. Brakes last 12 hours.
Granted the new Clutches are Carbon though Pretty uhmazing it weighs like NOTHING...
Still brakes will always wear faster no matter what. The way I look at it is I heel and toed ALWAYS on my Speed Protege and at 70,000 miles the clutch was still perfect when I got rid of it.
Trust me far more wear occurs when you dump it on a takeoff, or get on the giggle pedal all the way through the rev range and its struggling to keep those 280 ft/lbs restrained.
FACT : Clutch in a F430GT Car in ALMS lasts a whole season. Brakes last 12 hours.
Granted the new Clutches are Carbon though
Pretty uhmazing it weighs like NOTHING...
