Crankshaft balance

Im not tryin to cut corner, I do have the money to spend for balancing, what I considering is if this money is gonna be Well spent. I called AMS yesterday, very reputable shop for Mitsu guys, they told me almost every even fire inline 4 crank are well balanced to redline, they said most people misunderstand the meaning of Balance in 4 cylinder world, is more of a weight matching of the rod and piston instead. If they are perfectly matched then you are golden. The only reason to balance the crank is having a greater balance ratio, the factory tolerate upto 1gram , but if you balance it to 0.01 or 1 ug, thats whole another story. I also talked to the guy at my local shop who do balance stuff, he said the same thing just like the AMS guy. He said if you want to have a tigher balance level, better than stock level then rebalance it. Otherwise I dont need to, I wont rev this motor to 8000rpm. And for those who s*** talks, read. s*** you guys dont even know how a crankshaft is designed.

http://www.jcrdevelopments.com/content/engineering/crankbal.html
 
Quit feeding people bad information if you just learned or read something online! You are not an expert if you just read something online!

Performance built engines REQUIRE precise balancing.


You don't balance it with the flywheel or crank pulley. They are balanced independently. If you replaced the parts or machined the flywheel you would throw off the balance, thus is why the engine is internally balanced and should stay that way.

The forged rods and pistons stock are heavier than stock. Scaling the pistons and rods are only part of the balancing process.

u know the physic right? even they are heavier it wont change s*** if they are weight equal. 2 up 2 down means cancellation.

you are partial right if you consider Performance built engine = 8000rpm safe, in that case I need to rebalance the crank to a better spec than OEM.
 
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Im not tryin to cut corner, I do have the money to spend for balancing, what I considering is if this money is gonna be Well spent. I called AMS yesterday, very reputable shop for Mitsu guys, they told me almost every even fire inline 4 crank are well balanced to redline, they said most people misunderstand the meaning of Balance in 4 cylinder world, is more of a weight matching of the rod and piston instead. If they are perfectly matched then you are golden. The only reason to balance the crank is having a greater balance ratio, the factory tolerate upto 1gram , but if you balance it to 0.01 or 1 ug, thats whole another story. I also talked to the guy at my local shop who do balance stuff, he said the same thing just like the AMS guy. He said if you want to have a tigher balance level, better than stock level then rebalance it. Otherwise I dont need to, I wont rev this motor to 8000rpm. And for those who s*** talks, read. s*** you guys dont even know how a crankshaft is designed.

http://www.jcrdevelopments.com/content/engineering/crankbal.html

this is money well spent!! trust me on this, i had my msp forged built, balanced blueprinted.. like i said though.. shop around for the balancing, that seems like a really high price! and if you spoke with your local shop and he says its not necessary, then ask why the hell he charges so much for it? just some food for thought, i am not trying to get in a pissing contest, i just dont want anything to happen to you after you spent all that $$$
 
this is money well spent!! trust me on this, i had my msp forged built, balanced blueprinted.. like i said though.. shop around for the balancing, that seems like a really high price! and if you spoke with your local shop and he says its not necessary, then ask why the hell he charges so much for it? just some food for thought, i am not trying to get in a pissing contest, i just dont want anything to happen to you after you spent all that $$$

Have you ever seen how do a machineshop balance your crank? I do. And I asked every step they did. You said you are balanced that means they balanced to a better level than OEM, which is fine to me.
 
For what it's worth my old race team built several GSX-R600 I4 engines, one with Wiseco pistons, with a redline at 14,000RPM. We didn't balance them and never ran into trouble. Granted that's a bike engine though... (dunno)

Balancing is probably the prudent way to go, and the reduced side-load on the crank shaft will improve performance and longevity. Even at $300 it's still a small fraction of the cost of building a motor... why screw around?
 
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Gotta have a final conclusion for this kind of discussion:

Either you rebalance to have a better spec than OEM, 0.01 or 0.001g, that way you can rev more than ever 7500rpm to 8000.

Or you dont need to balance but rescale the weight of the reciprocating parts equally, and attached to the crank, that way you have the OEM balance spec. 1g. which is fine for original redline.
 
For what it's worth my old race team built several GSX-R600 I4 engines, one with Wiseco pistons, with a redline at 14,000RPM. We didn't balance them and never ran into trouble. Granted that's a bike engine though... (dunno)

Balancing is probably the prudent way to go, and the reduced side-load on the crank shaft will improve performance and longevity.

wiseco scale their pistons to 0.2gram tolerance, which is really fine!
 
^i mean yea that doesnt seem like much, .2g really isnt alot of weight, but you dont know where that extra .2 grams is at on each piston...if its on the front on one and on the back on the other then that would make a bigger differrence
and the crank is balanced for the stock pistons and rods, once you put aftermarket forged stuff on there you throw off the balance! it doesnt matter even if its only by .4g...you and I do not know how much of a difference that makes in an engine

so if you dont want to get it balanced, then dont man, but like JDMSAM was saying, dont tell other people that they dont need to do it cuz its been tried and tested and if it was worthless it wouldnt exist
 
^i mean yea that doesnt seem like much, .2g really isnt alot of weight, but you dont know where that extra .2 grams is at on each piston...if its on the front on one and on the back on the other then that would make a bigger differrence
and the crank is balanced for the stock pistons and rods, once you put aftermarket forged stuff on there you throw off the balance! it doesnt matter even if its only by .4g...you and I do not know how much of a difference that makes in an engine

so if you dont want to get it balanced, then dont man, but like JDMSAM was saying, dont tell other people that they dont need to do it cuz its been tried and tested and if it was worthless it wouldnt exist

read the previous post.
 
Here are the facts!

Alright! I'm Mechanical Engineer, not engine builder...so let's set the facts straight! I am going to explain the facts from a mechanical standpoint, not as an experienced engine builder.

The forged rods and pistons stock are heavier than stock. Scaling the pistons and rods are only part of the balancing process.

YES, matching the reciprocating weights, pistons and rods, IS important but as stated is only PART of the process.

I know but thats a pure DIYable stuff, a grinder and a good scale and grinding the good place...

DO NOT DO THIS!!!! I cannot stress this more! A forged part is made in such a way that the discontinuities/grains in the material are lined up and at specific places. This is why they are stronger than a cast part. Grinding on ANY portion of the piece introduces irregularities in the part causing stress concentrations in that area therefore creating a place for failure to occur.

Just because everything weighs the same doesnt mean that everything is perfectly balanced. Its where the weight is on the rotating assembly that is important too as it will affect how forces are applied to the crank.

This statement is also completely correct. The rotating assembly, ie the crankshaft, has to be balanced as well. Reciprocating and rotating assemblies are two COMPLETELY different animals and require individual attention. The crankshaft should be balanced when rebuilding to ensure that it is indeed balanced and will work with the new reciprocating parts. It should also be noted that the changes in the reciprocating part weights will change the harmonics of the rotating shaft further increasing the need to be sure every moving part is precisely balanced.



Performance built engines REQUIRE precise balancing.


You don't balance it with the flywheel or crank pulley. They are balanced independently. If you replaced the parts or machined the flywheel you would throw off the balance, thus is why the engine is internally balanced and should stay that way.

The forged rods and pistons stock are heavier than stock. Scaling the pistons and rods are only part of the balancing process.

Just to reiterate, someone else saying the same thing. Balancing a crankshaft and scaling pistons BOTH need to be done in order to avoid catastrophic failure.

As a final note, by reading this post I will assume that you are rebuilding your current engine. This would mean to me that you are reusing your crankshaft. As anyone with any experience with two parts touching each other with relative motion between them will tell you, things wear out! No matter how good the factory balance is or how expensive the oil you use is, over time the mating surfaces will wear out. Because of the variations in the weight the pistons and rods attached to the crankshaft, wear is uneven. Uneven wear will cause the balance to be thrown off, even if only slightly, it will be off. Again, reason to balance your crankshaft.

Plus, you are building your engine, I would assume to create more power. Replacing FACTORY pieces with AFTERMARKET ones. If this is the case, then why would you trust a FACTORY crankshaft balance to be adequate?

Just listen to what everyone is telling you, balance the crankshaft AND scale the pistons. But don't get it done at that shop, way too expensive.
 
I hate saying it about a fellow Canuck, but stop feeding the troll. He doesn't want to learn so let him have his imperfect engine built.
Do remember that 300$ is in Canada where there aren't a lot of shops doing this. Having said that, I had my entire rotating assembly balanced for a shade over 300$ a few hours away from where this guy resides. If he doesn't want to listen to experienced people, let him do what he wants and we can all say "I told you so" if/when his engine develops issues...
 
I hate saying it about a fellow Canuck, but stop feeding the troll. He doesn't want to learn so let him have his imperfect engine built.
Do remember that 300$ is in Canada where there aren't a lot of shops doing this. Having said that, I had my entire rotating assembly balanced for a shade over 300$ a few hours away from where this guy resides. If he doesn't want to listen to experienced people, let him do what he wants and we can all say "I told you so" if/when his engine develops issues...

I know, I just wanted to be sure that the facts were known and not all over the place. Plus I'm having a bit of fun, it is a game I like to call "Poke The Bear". (evil)

If you paid about $300, i guess that is fair. I didn't take into account that that is Canadian and the large expanses of uninhabited land that Canada has...
 
Im not tryin to cut corner, I do have the money to spend for balancing, what I considering is if this money is gonna be Well spent. I called AMS yesterday, very reputable shop for Mitsu guys, they told me almost every even fire inline 4 crank are well balanced to redline, they said most people misunderstand the meaning of Balance in 4 cylinder world, is more of a weight matching of the rod and piston instead. If they are perfectly matched then you are golden. The only reason to balance the crank is having a greater balance ratio, the factory tolerate upto 1gram , but if you balance it to 0.01 or 1 ug, thats whole another story. I also talked to the guy at my local shop who do balance stuff, he said the same thing just like the AMS guy. He said if you want to have a tigher balance level, better than stock level then rebalance it. Otherwise I dont need to, I wont rev this motor to 8000rpm. And for those who s*** talks, read. s*** you guys dont even know how a crankshaft is designed.

http://www.jcrdevelopments.com/content/engineering/crankbal.html

I dont know what your talking about the company i work for makes car parts i can tell you how to make one. If you know everything then why did you even post this?
 
I asked the guy to check the crankshaft balance today is been done, I was there at the shop and watchin him do the job, surprisely the crankalone dont need to rebalance, even considering the wear, he said he didnt touch the crank he just check with the machine and is already well balanced. that junkyard engine got about 35000km which is not bad for wear... so what he did right after is scale the piston and rod to the correct weight.
 
Not to keep this going BUT, for an 'inline' engine... the only real way to see if crank needs to be balanced is to spin it and see how much it is off from side to side, and how much are you willing to live with. "V" engines are a different beast, like stated before.
 
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