Camber Question...

[J-Villa]

So my car is almost due for an alignment. I've got a question on the rear tire's camber though.

Right now, it's a pretty significant negative camber I believe. The tops of the tires point in about 1-1.5 degrees. This caused my stock set of potenza's to wear bad. I'm thinking about having the shop put 0* camber on my back wheels so that they are always flat to the pavement, since they don't get power or turn really.

any sugestions? Is this a good idea to put 0 camber on my car? or is the negative camber there for a reason?

PS...
I got 235/45 R18 Falken 912's today.

 

[bykeryder4life]

well, on stock suspension you do not have the option of changing the camber, only the toe. What suspension are you on? In theory 0 camber sounds great but that would only be so if you drove in straight lines at constant cruising speeds. As you turn when you drive the weight of the car goes towards the outside edge of the tire. if you are at 0 camber you will wear out the outer edge of your tires. Performance will not feel that good either. You want slight negative camber. For a DD no more than -2* camber.


edit:your stock potenzas wore out fast because they are like a 140 treadwear rating, very soft and grippy tire but wears out fast as hell. I got like 11k out of mine somehow.

 

[Speed3ForMe]

I'm so surprised by how few miles so many of you guys get out of your stock potenzas. I'm at 12k and its practically like new.

 

[J-Villa]

Well I've got about 120 miles on my new tires... (I actually got a total of 19,000 miles out of my potenza's) and you are starting to see the effects of the camber in the rear.

Looking at the tire from the back of the car, you can tell it's riding on the inside. You can also see where some of that new tire coating has worn away, the portion on the inside of the tire is more worn then the outter edge.

I'm just worried with a setup like this, I'm just gonna keep wearing the inside's of my rear tires out quick. I am on a stock suspention as well... So idk.

I'm gonna take the car to an alignment shop next chance I got, I just wanted to see what I could find out on the intrawebz first.

 

[Nliiitend1]

It's not likely that your camber alone is causing improper wear. If your TOE out of whack, it will DEFINITELY cause accelerated wear on the insides of the tires. You should be able to run up to 2 degrees negative camber on the rear of an MS3 without any problems, as long as your toe is set properly...

BTW, whereabouts do you live in JAX?

There's another autocross out at Whitefield this Sunday. I'll be there along with a bunch of my Focus buddies.

 

[wmherman]

My 08 Speed3 is at the tire shop now. I took it there because the left, rear tire has visible cupping on the inside edge. The car has 15k miles and the tires have never been rotated. It's my wife's car and it's not driven hard.

What the tire shop found is that the car has negative camber and is pretty much in the center of the specs. Why the left, rear tire cupped so badly and the right, rear tire looks almost new is a puzzle.

They only tweaked the front alignment slightly as it was not far off.

The front tires had worn quite a bit. The right, front tire was worn almost to the teadwear indicators. The rear tires were not worn very much, except for the cupping on the left, rear.

They put the front tires on the rear and the rear tires on the front. I'll have to keep an eye on the left, front tire now as it's the "cupped" tire.

I'll be lucky to get another 10k miles, giving me approx 25k miles on the set.

I know these tires are "soft" due to being performance tires but 25k miles is not very good in my book.

Also, the negative camber is for handling purposes.

Question, what tires are most folks putting on this car when it's time for a new set? Also, how much mileage is everyone getting on OEM tires?

 

[Nliiitend1]

What were the toe settings when you got it aligned? If your left rear was truly cupping, I would guess your left rear toe needs to be set correctly (especially if you had no cupping on the right rear).

15K is WAAAAAAY too long to go without rotating tires on this car.

I rotate mine every 3K miles, and I still only got 15K miles out of my OEM RE050As (though I track the car as well...).

IMO, they need to be rotated AT LEAST every 5K miles, no matter what your driving style.

 

[bykeryder4life]

I'm so surprised by how few miles so many of you guys get out of your stock potenzas. I'm at 12k and its practically like new.

some get 30k out of them, some get no more than 9k. It all depends on road conditions and driving habits....my roads suck and I drive...well.. not so nice on my tires....

 

[J-Villa]

It's not likely that your camber alone is causing improper wear. If your TOE out of whack, it will DEFINITELY cause accelerated wear on the insides of the tires. You should be able to run up to 2 degrees negative camber on the rear of an MS3 without any problems, as long as your toe is set properly...

BTW, whereabouts do you live in JAX?

There's another autocross out at Whitefield this Sunday. I'll be there along with a bunch of my Focus buddies.

Fruit Cove area for now. Trying to get out into the beaches.

I'd like to go track my car, atleast go and spectate. I'll see what my schedule looks like. There's more and more Autox's in Jax everytime I look.

And i'm gettin the car aligned next tuesday.

 

[wmherman@mchsi.]

What were the toe settings when you got it aligned? If your left rear was truly cupping, I would guess your left rear toe needs to be set correctly (especially if you had no cupping on the right rear).

15K is WAAAAAAY too long to go without rotating tires on this car.

I rotate mine every 3K miles, and I still only got 15K miles out of my OEM RE050As (though I track the car as well...).

IMO, they need to be rotated AT LEAST every 5K miles, no matter what your driving style.

Yes, 15k is way too long. LR toe was 0.17 and RR toe was 0.13, both very much within spec. Total toe was 0.30. LR camber was -1.9 and RR camber was -1.5, again very much within range.

The only thing the shop could figure is that maybe I ran the tire with low air pressure for awhile. I guess that's possible.

 

[Nliiitend1]

Are those toe figures you're giving in degrees, or inches?

Also, I'd be pretty unhappy with any shop that didn't fix rear cross-toe like that. It's a rather simple adjustment and there's no reason to have more toe on one side than the other. Correcting the rear cross-toe should minimize or eliminate your cross-camber in the rear as well (since the two parameters are linked on the rear suspension of this car).

 

[wmherman@mchsi.]

Are those toe figures you're giving in degrees, or inches?

Also, I'd be pretty unhappy with any shop that didn't fix rear cross-toe like that. It's a rather simple adjustment and there's no reason to have more toe on one side than the other. Correcting the rear cross-toe should minimize or eliminate your cross-camber in the rear as well (since the two parameters are linked on the rear suspension of this car).

All figures are degrees...

 

[UHATEIT]

hold up, so as far as adjustments:

You CANNOT adjust rear camber but can adjust rear toe?
and
You CANNOT adjust front camber but can adjust front toe?

I thought you could adjust front camber but just not on the rear.
I am in desperate need of toe on my rears right now, but if i can get some camber adjustments out of front and rears that would be great!

 

[CnoTataymo]

On a stock MS3, you can only adjust toe. If you want to adjust camber, you can slightly adjust the front camber if you unbolt the 3 top bolts and push them far in as possible. That's the only way. And you can't adjust the rear camber period but can adjust toe.

The only way to adjust camber is if you have front camber plates and rear camber links.

 

[Nliiitend1]

On a stock MS3, you can only adjust toe. If you want to adjust camber, you can slightly adjust the front camber if you unbolt the 3 top bolts and push them far in as possible. That's the only way. And you can't adjust the rear camber period but can adjust toe.

The only way to adjust camber is if you have front camber plates and rear camber links.

While you are correct, I just want to make a clarification:

While there is no rear "camber adjustment" per se, rear camber does change slightly on this car with rear toe changes (the two properties are inherently linked by the design of the rear suspension). Of course, I would never recommend using rear toe adjustments to dial in a desired camber value, since that'd be little more than a splendid way to pump up the profits of the tire companies. (lol2)

 

[hilmar2k]

Question, what tires are most folks putting on this car when it's time for a new set? Also, how much mileage is everyone getting on OEM tires?

It depends on what you are looking for. I live in the northeast and didn't want a separate winter setup, so I went with Goodyear Eagle F1 A/S-C. I got about 15k out of the Potenzas without rotating. When I took them off, the fronts were toast, but the rears still had decent tread. That tells me that I would have gotten 20k+ out of them had I rotated them. I didn't rotate as I knew I would be replacing them.

I only have a few hundred miles on the Goodyears, but so far I think these are the tires the MS3 should come stock with north of the Mason-Dixon line. They are great so far. They handle really well in the wet and dry, and well enough in the snow (light years better than the stockers, of course). Once the spring gets here in full, it will be interesting to see how they react to being pushed hard.

The Goodyears are also very quiet, and very inexpensive ($105 at TireRack). I recommend them for a very good all around tire.

 

[CnoTataymo]

While you are correct, I just want to make a clarification:

While there is no rear "camber adjustment" per se, rear camber does change slightly on this car with rear toe changes (the two properties are inherently linked by the design of the rear suspension). Of course, I would never recommend using rear toe adjustments to dial in a desired camber value, since that'd be little more than a splendid way to pump up the profits of the tire companies. (lol2)

Thanks Sir. (wink)

 

[J-Villa]

So I got my alignment done by the dealership around here and they gave me the nifty little print out that shows all the measurements the tech got once he was done w/ the alignment. The front end of the car is perfect. Everything within a few hundreds of a degree from each other and toe is exactly even (I think .7 degrees inwards)

The rear was another story... My driver side rear tire had about -1 degrees of camber... but the passanger side tire had -2.2 or so degrees of camber... I am starting to think this might be why my potenza's wore sooo damn weird.

 

[Mr_Boom]

Question, what tires are most folks putting on this car when it's time for a new set? Also, how much mileage is everyone getting on OEM tires?

The rear camber isn't what really wore your stock Potenza's down, as myself and many others have failed to get more than 15k out of them (with rotation).

When getting a new tire I wanted something with better treadwear that could get me around in the snow when I travel home to WV for the holidays (plus I have a separate track tire when I go racing). After searching around I settled on the BFG Supersport A/S (225/40R18) and have been very pleased. There has been a very slight drop off in dry handling (partially due to a taller treadblock), but wet handling and comfort (road isolation being the biggest difference) have all been an improvement and the tire noise doesn't mean s*** because the engine drowns it out. From asking around at work it also looks like I should expect around 25k from these tires with proper rotation.

 

[Nliiitend1]

So I got my alignment done by the dealership around here and they gave me the nifty little print out that shows all the measurements the tech got once he was done w/ the alignment. The front end of the car is perfect. Everything within a few hundreds of a degree from each other and toe is exactly even (I think .7 degrees inwards)

The rear was another story... My driver side rear tire had about -1 degrees of camber... but the passanger side tire had -2.2 or so degrees of camber... I am starting to think this might be why my potenza's wore sooo damn weird.

Do you mind posting all your before/after specs?