This is true. If I am the one that has to do the work (changeing the turbo) and not the dealership, you better believe that what I put on there will NOT be stock
GT3071 FTW! But MAN they are proud of that thing........
Calling all MS3 Owners with smoking Turbos...
- Thread starter AutoXRacer
- Start date
This is true. If I am the one that has to do the work (changeing the turbo) and not the dealership, you better believe that what I put on there will NOT be stock
GT3071 FTW! But MAN they are proud of that thing........Eric,
Report back sometime after your installs with any post issues. I don't plan on putting anything else on until April, then I will report back about any ill side affects. Keep an eye on your oil levels. If you aren't losing any now, check periodically after the installs to see if that changes. I'm not burning or missing any that I can measure on the dip stick (just a COBB intake at the time). Whether its seals or blow by, it does seem to be hit or miss, as most MS3's I believe don't smoke, but a handful do; most are modded exhaust MS3's, some are stock.
I'm not saying that there aren't smoking MS3's out there, just that I don't think there are as many as my imagination/paranoia makes me think that there are.
Report back sometime after your installs with any post issues. I don't plan on putting anything else on until April, then I will report back about any ill side affects. Keep an eye on your oil levels. If you aren't losing any now, check periodically after the installs to see if that changes. I'm not burning or missing any that I can measure on the dip stick (just a COBB intake at the time). Whether its seals or blow by, it does seem to be hit or miss, as most MS3's I believe don't smoke, but a handful do; most are modded exhaust MS3's, some are stock.
I'm not saying that there aren't smoking MS3's out there, just that I don't think there are as many as my imagination/paranoia makes me think that there are.
oskinosmee
Member
- :
- 07 mazdaspeed 3
Its got me thinking twice about puttin my CS DP on.
oskinosmee
Member
- :
- 07 mazdaspeed 3
I got mine installed with No smoke. 100 bucks and 3 hours.
I HIGHLY doubt it. I finally have a video up. Now if I can just get this to work.......
http://http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9xgM2skyIEw
http://http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9xgM2skyIEw
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Thanks. I see what was wrong on mine now. http: twice.........
mazdaspeed32007
Member
- :
- Mazdaspeed3
+100000000000000000000000000000000000000000.01
I wrote this up a while ago, but haven't posted it due to the differing opinions on this problem. I'm going to post it anyways for the informational bennefits about the turbo in this car. I am not convinced though that it is a pressure differential issue, yet....
I have done some reading on this turbo and found some good info.
The bearings on this turbo are brass sleeves over the turbo shaft. These brass sleeves turn independently of the turbo shaft at about half the speed of the shafy because they are floating on engine oil that flows on the inside of the sleeves and the outside of the sleeves. Clearances are a few hundreths of a milimeter. They claim this is the most efficient way to get RPMs up to 300,000 and life-span to 621K miles in commercial vehicles. I'm assuming a low boost in that application!
Anyways, looking over the deisgn of this turbo, it is clear to me why they can leak oil into the exhaust. Here is a description of the The axial-thrust bearing"
"As the gas forces acting on the compressor and turbine wheels in axial direction are of differing strengths, the shaft and turbine wheel assembly is displaced in an axial direction. The axial bearing, a sliding surface bearing with tapered lands, absorbs these forces. Two small discs fixed on the shaft serve as contact surfaces. The axial bearing is fixed in the centre housing. An oil-deflecting plate prevents the oil from entering the shaft sealing area."
Lowering the back pressure and increasing boost or using a quicker BPV will introduce more dramatic axial movement in the turbo shaft everyting you let off the gas. I think this can increase wear on the axial bearings.
Also, here is another quote about the sealing of the turbo:
"The centre housing must be sealed against the hot turbine exhaust gas and against oil loss from the centre housing. A piston ring is installed in a groove on the rotor shaft on both the turbine and compressor side. These rings do not rotate, but are firmly clamped in the centre housing. This contactless type of sealing, a form of labyrinth seal, makes oil leakage more difficult due to multiple flow reversals, and ensures that only small quantities of exhaust gas escape into the crankcase."
So, if there is a chance that exhaust gas can escape into the crank-case, then there is a chance that oil can escape into the exhaust under certain pressure differential conditions (idling or just after WOT seems most probable).
Read this about turbos and oil:
"The bearings are usually destroyed by either oil contamination, oil starvation or oil coking.
If the inside of the bearing housing resembles the bottom of a frying pan and is coated with black crusty deposits, oil coking was the cause of failure. The bearings are oil cooled, and during normal operation temperatures don't get hot enough to cause oil coking. But when the engine is shut off, temperatures can rise to 600 to 700 degrees F. inside the housing as the turbo undergoes a period of heat soak. The oil oxidizes and forms coke deposits in the housing that then act like an abrasive to wear the bearings. Using a high temperature "turbo" oil or synthetic oil, installing an auxiliary oil cooler, and changing the oil every 3,000 miles can avoid oil breakdown and coking problems. In water-cooled turbos, coking is less of a problem provided the oil is changed regularly and you use a quality motor oil."
Below, I have highlighted what I believe are contributors to oil leaking into the exhaust from the turbo:
1. Engine oil not clean and fresh and not of a type stable at High operating temperatures.
2. Turning off the engine while the turbo is still hot and/or spinning.
3. Not letting the engine oil warm up and flow into the turbo before driving.
4. Pressure changes between the inlet side and exhaust side of the turbo
I have done some reading on this turbo and found some good info.
The bearings on this turbo are brass sleeves over the turbo shaft. These brass sleeves turn independently of the turbo shaft at about half the speed of the shafy because they are floating on engine oil that flows on the inside of the sleeves and the outside of the sleeves. Clearances are a few hundreths of a milimeter. They claim this is the most efficient way to get RPMs up to 300,000 and life-span to 621K miles in commercial vehicles. I'm assuming a low boost in that application!
Anyways, looking over the deisgn of this turbo, it is clear to me why they can leak oil into the exhaust. Here is a description of the The axial-thrust bearing"
"As the gas forces acting on the compressor and turbine wheels in axial direction are of differing strengths, the shaft and turbine wheel assembly is displaced in an axial direction. The axial bearing, a sliding surface bearing with tapered lands, absorbs these forces. Two small discs fixed on the shaft serve as contact surfaces. The axial bearing is fixed in the centre housing. An oil-deflecting plate prevents the oil from entering the shaft sealing area."
Lowering the back pressure and increasing boost or using a quicker BPV will introduce more dramatic axial movement in the turbo shaft everyting you let off the gas. I think this can increase wear on the axial bearings.
Also, here is another quote about the sealing of the turbo:
"The centre housing must be sealed against the hot turbine exhaust gas and against oil loss from the centre housing. A piston ring is installed in a groove on the rotor shaft on both the turbine and compressor side. These rings do not rotate, but are firmly clamped in the centre housing. This contactless type of sealing, a form of labyrinth seal, makes oil leakage more difficult due to multiple flow reversals, and ensures that only small quantities of exhaust gas escape into the crankcase."
So, if there is a chance that exhaust gas can escape into the crank-case, then there is a chance that oil can escape into the exhaust under certain pressure differential conditions (idling or just after WOT seems most probable).
Read this about turbos and oil:
"The bearings are usually destroyed by either oil contamination, oil starvation or oil coking.
If the inside of the bearing housing resembles the bottom of a frying pan and is coated with black crusty deposits, oil coking was the cause of failure. The bearings are oil cooled, and during normal operation temperatures don't get hot enough to cause oil coking. But when the engine is shut off, temperatures can rise to 600 to 700 degrees F. inside the housing as the turbo undergoes a period of heat soak. The oil oxidizes and forms coke deposits in the housing that then act like an abrasive to wear the bearings. Using a high temperature "turbo" oil or synthetic oil, installing an auxiliary oil cooler, and changing the oil every 3,000 miles can avoid oil breakdown and coking problems. In water-cooled turbos, coking is less of a problem provided the oil is changed regularly and you use a quality motor oil."
Below, I have highlighted what I believe are contributors to oil leaking into the exhaust from the turbo:
1. Engine oil not clean and fresh and not of a type stable at High operating temperatures.
2. Turning off the engine while the turbo is still hot and/or spinning.
3. Not letting the engine oil warm up and flow into the turbo before driving.
4. Pressure changes between the inlet side and exhaust side of the turbo
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^Thanks for the writeup, can you reveal your source for the design details? Have you come to any conclusions regarding the connection to modified exhausts and the fact that the majority of smoking problems appear to be on 2007 models and not 2008? I wonder if any of the replacement turbos are having re-occurring problems.
-enganear
-enganear
mazdaspeed32007
Member
- :
- Mazdaspeed3
great write up man. def sheds a lot of light in many dark places. i put a link in another thread because people were wondering why oil was ending up in the IC. since people are having problems with oil not only in the exhaust but IC as well it seems something needs to get done to stop this oil loss all over the motor. as it seems a catch can can stop most of the oil from moving into unwanted places for the most part. as for wear and tear...well...it seems like just a maintainance issue to provide the longest life of your motor and turbo. as most of us care for these cars with a great deal of conviction most of us will get a good use out of these vehicles before they so called...."s*** the bed" thanks for the info speedy3. just a few loose threads to tie up and we may be on our way to fixing these hassles.
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Good stuff
Speedy that is just awesome, helpful and informative Im sure we all appreciate the time and effort put forth. And that goes for all who have participated in this thread, thanks to evah body This why I bought a computer and joined the forum! peace and no oil smoke to all
Speedy that is just awesome, helpful and informative Im sure we all appreciate the time and effort put forth. And that goes for all who have participated in this thread, thanks to evah body This why I bought a computer and joined the forum! peace and no oil smoke to all
Well, my exhaust smokes under idle ALWAYS. No matter how I drive it, this is the case. I am seeing the dealer on Monday. Hopefully, I won't be dropping lots of money on a new turbo. I am also noticeing occasional backfire since the smoking issue has reared its ugly head. Anybody else notice backfires? Also the occasional fuel cut, but after watching my boost gauge, it is because about 5% of the time at WOT I spike just a hair over 18 before holding at 15. I need Xcede.........my biggest worries are the backfires. They happen also about 5% of the time, but aren't directly related to the fuel cut as far as I can tell.....
The backfire is just raw fuel ingniting in the exhaust. My friends fd does it almost every shift. My speed does it with less regularity on upshifts, It sounds awesome in a tunnel.(2thumbs)
AutoXRacer
Member
Why would you be dropping money on a new turbo? Are you planning to upgrade? If not, the dealer should be the one to drop the cash...
