Budget audio makeover - thoughts?

[HelionTBone]

Hi all,

I've been watching this forum for a year or so and just love what this community has to offer. My mp5 is totally stock except for different tires and a K&N air filter (I know... not exactly mods).

I sold my Dodge Neon to buy my mp5 and the ONLY thing I missed was that my Neon had a much, much better sound to its stock system. I've been wanting to play my iPod touch through my stereo so I finally decided to put in an aftermarket deck unit and some speakers. Being on a budget I decided on:

Alpine CDA-105 head unit
Pioneer TS-D6802r 6x8 speakers in the front
Pioneer TS-D1602r 6.5 speakers in the rear
Dynamat 10" surface around the fronts
NO SUBS OR AMPS

I'm a little concerned about underpowering the Pioneer D series with only 18W RMS (each channel) coming from the deck, but I really don't want to put in an amp and Crutchfield says I'll be happy just of the deck power. We shall see when I get it installed, for right now I'm just trusting them.

Has anyone had experience with these speakers off deck power?

Has anyone had experience with Alpine's bluetooth add-on? What are your thoughts?

I'm also considering following this guy's suggestion:
http://www.mazdas247.com/forum/showthread.php?t=123762832&highlight=speakers

But I'm wondering if its really gonna be a benefit for me and should I really be pulling off the stock plastic wrap inside the doors to do this? Is there some way to re-apply? I've seen through some of the posts that water actually does travel through the inside of these doors and I'm concerned that pulling off the plastic wrap is a bad idea. I am very intreagued though, as I love the idea of reducing road noise - even if its just a little.

Thanks in advance... (wrc)

 

[uiuc240]

I have an Alpine deck with iPod cord and some Alpine Type-S in the front doors and LOVE IT. It's all you need. Rear speakers are overrated anyway. Just fade it +2 to the front and call it a day.

 

[WhiteKnight]

the Alpine bluetooth add on functions pretty well. I think it's way overpriced though.

 

[localkineguy]

this has been thought about before

There's a thread about this: http://www.msprotege.com/forum/showthread.php?t=123627659 . I haven't taken any of their advice yet as I'm still running stock but I would assume that most of the people posting know what they're talking about.
And regrading the cheap sound-proofing. My cousin did it to his Toyota Tacoma 4x4 and liked the outcome. I plan to do it but didn't realize we had to pull off plastic...now I'm also worried about water damage.

 

[u812many73]

I have never been a fan of the pioneer speakers, they are def not a bad choice, better than Sony or cheaper brands, but I have always went with something like Polk or Infinity which are usually close to the price of pioneer. Pioneers never seemed to have a good midbass output, this is where the Polk really shine, which is good when you wont be having a sub. When I installed at the late Circuit City, I usually talked customers out of pioneers, but maybe thats mostly personal preference.

You will def want to put some sort or silencing material behind the speakers while you are in there, at least on the mounting surface. It was night and day when I did it to mine. I think it stopped some of the flex in the sheet metal thus improving the bass response of the speakers. As far as in the door, thats really up to you, I doubt it will do too much as far as the stereo goes, more in the way of making the car quieter overall. These doors do seem to get a lot of water in them. My drivers door has some rust on the lip at the bottom of the door where the drain is at. it turns out the little drain was clogged and it was holding water. If you look at the bottom you will see what I am talking about.

As far as driving them off the deck.... You should be fine. Obviously an amp will make it more crisp and give you less distortion, the speakers can still be driven off the deck no problem. just listen for distortion at higher levels because that is what ultimately will damage the speakers.


The Protege obviously wasn't designed around a good stereo. I don't like the fact that like most cars, the speakers are all basically on the floor aimed at your feet. One of the biggest improvements I made was adding tweeters to the sail panels on the driver and passenger doors. Yours may already have the factory tweeters though, mine unfortunately didn't. Just replacing your paper speakers with a decent aftermarket set will def help, but I recommend adding tweeters to "raise the soundstage" of the car a little bit.


Sorry for the rambling..... hope you get some help from it though.

 

[HelionTBone]

Thanks for the quick replies guys. I appreciate the feedback.

812 - your post was off the hook... def helpful. I've been struggling with this for a couple weeks and finally ordered the pioneers before posting this. I should have posted first, but I didn't want to be that guy. I've searched through and read as much as I could find but it seemed like most people in here like to add the amp and I had a hard time finding something that applied to my usage.

Anyway I was very close to buying the Infinities, but I didn't care for the lack of a low end on the Reference series and I was told that my deck couldn't power the Kappas. I never actually looked into the Polks.... oops.

I have a question on the tweets. With my 03 I do have the tweeters in the sails and as far as I understand they are connected to the current coaxials (I haven't checked yet). I was assuming I'd disconnect them since the pioneer tweets are supposed to be decent, but do you think I should leave them connected? I originally wanted to get components, but the local dealer told me I couldn't fit the tweeters in there.

Thanks again! (bluep5)

 

[u812many73]

Def leave them connected. I assume they are crossed over somewhere inline so they should still sound fine. Believe me, you will miss them if you do unhook them. lol. That was the final piece to my system and I haven't touched it in two years because I am very happy with the sound.

It would be hard to fit aftermarket tweets in the stock panels, but I'm sure it could be done. You would def need an amp for components anyway so you prob went the correct route with the coaxials. Down the road you can always add an amp to enhance what you have. I wouldn't want to underpower some components and risk blowing them.

For the record, I am running an Eclipse CD7000 head unit, Polk DB series in all 4 doors, an MTX 10" 4500 series sub, pioneer add-on tweeters (I know I hated on pioneer, but the price was right and they included crossovers) lol, and it is all powered by a Kicker ZX700.5. By far my best sounding most mix matched system I have ever had. I did it all 2-3 years ago and am very pleased.

 

[HelionTBone]

Great I will keep that in mind. If nothing else, all this information helps me feel reasurred about my decision. Worst case I can always return the Pioneers if I'm not happy and pay the restocking fee (prob 25% of the $85 I paid). I haven't actually purchased the rears yet cause I want to hear the fronts first.

Do you agree with my putting the 10" dynamat on the speaker mounting surface, or would you recommend a different plan?

Someday I think I'll probably add the Alpine power pack to bring all four channels to 45W RMS and get a cleaner sound, but that'll be down the road. Not the same as a "real" amp, but def enough for my meager needs. I have no intention of adding a sub, though I know that would really bring things together.

Thanks again for all your comments... I owe you a beer bro (drinks)

 

[u812many73]

I'm sure you will be happy with the pioneers, they are a drastic upgrade over the stockers, and without another comparable speaker next to them, you will never notice what they lack over those other options. Don't sweat the purchase too much!

Yes, use the Dynamat! I used Tsunami silencer behind on all of the speaker mounting surfaces, same idea, different brand. There will be a noticeable upgrade over not using it. Also, that stuff you saw in the thread about quieting the interior, it was gutter sealer or whatever from the hardware store. That is a good alternative to Dynamat. Dynamat is probably twice as thick, but its also 8 times the cost. So if you end up going that route, just double it up. I used it many times in the past. I did the entire floor of my old civic with that stuff, its great.

I don't know if you are familiar, but Mazda made a sub for the P5 that went into the spare tire. They occasionally come up for sale on here. They take up literally no space so if you are just not doing a sub because you don't want to lose the cargo space that is a good option.... down the road of course. It's by no means overpowering, and will add that touch your mids can't produce.


As for this beer...... I have never turned down a beer. If you're ever in Central Florida hit me up. lol

 

[P-Funk!]

NO!
Do the separates! You will get the crossover you need for the tweets with the set(the stock radio blocks the lows for the stock tweeters). Without tweets it is the 'sound at my feet'... The pioneer coax will not be the same or even adequate.

And they can still be run off the head unit. Don't use the rears as already mentioned or use a crossover to use them as bass only.

The front doors take 4" or 5.25" with an adapter. 6" if you cut.

 

[HelionTBone]

the Alpine bluetooth add on functions pretty well. I think it's way overpriced though.

I agree with you that it is rediculously overpriced. Unfortunately I liked the Alpine deck so much I had to have it - the iPod connectivity works so well.

Do you have the bluetooth unit? Are you pleased?

 

[HelionTBone]

NO!
Do the separates! You will get the crossover you need for the tweets with the set(the stock radio blocks the lows for the stock tweeters). Without tweets it is the 'sound at my feet'... The pioneer coax will not be the same or even adequate.

With all of the people that have mentioned water in the doors, have you had issues with the crossovers being in there?

The pioneers shipped yesterday, but I can always send them back if I'm not happy.

 

[HelionTBone]

u812many73 - I don't want to keep beating the horse, but do you think I would be happier with the Polk Audio db651s? or perhaps even a component version? The reason I ask is that I found out that I can return the ones I bought for a full refund. I'm still worried about putting crossovers in the doors knowing that lots of water goes through there, but maybe I shouldn't be.

Do you think those would run well off deck power (18W RMS)?

(deadhorse

 

[Matt V]

The CDA-105 is an awesome headunit, I love mine! It's so easy to use, and on top of that you don't have to buy an iPod cable with it because it has a USB port on the back. I bought it from these guys:

http://www.sonicelectronix.com/item_18875_Alpine+CDA-105.html

Amazing pricing and it came with installation accessories for no additional cost! Not to mention Sonic has amazing customer service. I would look at their speaker prices also.

 

[u812many73]

In the past I have hooked up component systems to run off deck power. Even a few to run off factory stereos, people with Chevy Silverados seemed to do that a lot. It will obviously work. Will the sound be at its full potential, probably not. You will get distortion at relatively low volume levels and be at a much higher risk to blowing most component setups compared to running a coaxial at the 18 RMS watts. If you were def going to add a power adder in the future then I say go for it. Just be careful not to damage them by under powering them in the meantime. The crossover will give you some protection in that case.

If you look at it from a power handling point, the Polk DB651 are rated at a max of 60RMS.... the DB6501 components are rated at 100RMS. I always like to get my system components within a minimum of 80% of their RMS power rating. You said you wanted to add the power pack at some point down the road. This will be a nice compliment to the Polk DB's or the pioneer, but still a little low end for this particular set of components.

I listen to my music fairly loud. I guess it really comes down to preference. I always piece my systems together because of the cost issues of doing it all at once. If I did it again, I would def have went with the components. I essentially made my own component set in the front by adding tweeters and crossovers. I also have 85 watts RMS running to each channel so I have flexability. I can always turn my amp gain down, you can't turn your deck power up.


As far as Polk over Pioneer..... the db651 are the new version of mine. I have the db650. one of the best speakers in their price range in my opinion. I don't know what you paid for the TSD's. Being that they are a higher grade pioneer, they were most likely more than the Polk's go for. Does this mean they sound better..... not necessarily. It's kind of a toss up to me. If it's worth the trouble of sending them back, I will always recommend the polks. If it were me and I already ordered them, I am way to impatient to send them back. You bought a good product for sure. so maybe just go with them.

I really didn't answer either question there.... just a little more insight. Don't sweat the beating the dead horse thing though. This audio stuff has always been a hobby of mine. Even before I could drive. I would still be installing for a living had Circuit City not gone out of business. There aren't many local shops for me to work out either. Now the only stuff I do are for friends and family. If you want any more of my opinion feel free to ask.

Oh yea, and as far as the water thing, you should be able to put crossovers inside the actual door between the interior panel and the plastic lining. That spot won't have any wetness issues. Im not 100% sure, but there should be a spot big enough between there. I haven't had the panels off in a while so I don't remember any voids in particular, but a small crossover should fit in there somewhere.

 

[HelionTBone]

Once again the responses are great. Good advice on crossover placement as well - I'll keep that in mind if I go for a set of components, but I agree that I'd be under-powering the Polk DB components even with the Alpine power pack. For the record I paid $85 for the Pioneer TS-D6802r set which is more than I can get the Polks for but not enough to write home about.

So I was able to find someone who wants to buy my stock 6-disk changer if he can return the deck he just purchased. If that happens I can afford to buy the Alpine power pack (45Wx4) to provide a better supply to my speakers. I do not have any desire to run a standard amplifier in my car (even though I know that would be the best solution from an audio standpoint).

As I am still waiting on delivery of my deck wiring harness and speakers, I am exploring a few options and I'm curious if people would like to weigh in on them. In addition to the Pioneer 6x8s I also have TS-D1602r 6.5s for the back.

Option A: Keep the Pioneers and run them off deck power (18Wx4). Spend the extra money on an Apline bluetooth kit

Option B: Keep the Pioneers and add the Alpine power pack. This would bring me to 75% of the nominal RMS rating of the speakers (60W).

or I can return the Pioneers (unopened) for a full refund and do one of the following:

Option C: Purchase the Polk Audio DB coaxials (front & back) and the Alpine power pack. (should I run 6.5 in front or 5x7?)

Option D: Purchase 4 Focal Audior Rip 165c 6.5 speakers. These are higher grade and nice sounding speakers but the bottom of the Focal line. They are more expensive, but CarToys has them at buy 1 get 1 half off. If I did this I would have to run them off deck power (I believe they are 50W RMS).

Keep it rolling in... extremely useful stuff guys. (bow)

 

[HelionTBone]

Sold my stock head unit today... I think I might go ahead and buy the Alpine power pack, but the Focals sure are tempting.

 

[WhiteKnight]

I agree with you that it is rediculously overpriced. Unfortunately I liked the Alpine deck so much I had to have it - the iPod connectivity works so well.

Do you have the bluetooth unit? Are you pleased?

I have the Alpine 9886 w/ the bluetooth unit and i'm very pleased with the performance. I bought it at cost through an employee accomodation so it wasn't nearly as expensive as list price.

As for the power pack, I had all my audio stolen and instead of getting another amp and rewiring it etc, I was going to do the alpine power pack. Good price for the output that it offers. Well I managed to get my stuff back (thanks police) so i didn't go that route. Suffice it to say I have a lot of money into my audio system in my car.

 

[WRCprotege]

i just bought the kenwood excleon kdc-x993 head unit.. its nice, bluetooth, and got it for 219 shipped from ebay. i bought polk door speakers years ago, used for $20 a set shipped to me.. then a $100 amp 250w x1 then a used 10" bazooka tube for $70, i replaced the sub with a kicker unit i ran across.. now the system sounds great, and i have very little money in it..under the $500 mark