Black Box Electronic Data Recorder in a CX-9 ??

[weitrhino]

I've known about Electronic Data Recorders (EDR) in vehicles for some time, and shake my head at the Progressive Insurance commercials touting the installation of their similar device for a supposed premium decrease. But I've just read a chilling article where the NHTSA is proposing to make such 'black boxes' mandatory on all vehicles. The NHTSA conveniently sidesteps privacy issues by claiming such things are not in their purview.

http://www.informationweek.com/security/privacy/mandatory-car-black-boxes-proposed-priva/240144546?google_editors_picks=true

My personal view is against the idea of forcing an EDR on every vehicle due to privacy concerns. I don't think any entity, be it governmental or commercial, has the right to continually monitor my activity when I'm behind the wheel. They have no business knowing the speed at which I drive, how fast I accelerate, brake, turn, etc., or whether I flip radio stations, engage the bluetooth system, or roll down the windows. Purchasing a car does not give anyone the right to know specifically how I use a car.

So I ask, is there already an EDR on my 2011 CX-9 and if so where is it? Can it be removed? Can it be bypassed?

 

[ceric]

AFAIK, different automakers record different levels of information (sensor outputs and status) in the OBDII.
There are a standard set of OBDII codes, but there are codes that are unique to each automaker.
If they install memory capability in the computer on board, all information can be recorded.
For example, I was able to program transmission temperature into my ScanGaugeII-X. That code is unique to Mazda.

Case in point, they said that Toyota knew about the pedal issue long before the Fed started questioning them.
They had info from the OBDII recording. I'm not sure if that was true or not.
I would assume that some vital info is being recorded as I drive.
I am not happy about it either.

 

[HOLOHOLO]

I doubt the toyota rumor. A black box can't really prove if a floormat jammed your accelerator or not. (I had this happen to me BTW - not in gear at the time!).

From the radio reports I've heard, all late model cars have a memory unit and it can be accessed by law enforcement or your insurance company in the case of an accident, and your rental car company as a matter of business.

It may not contain all the specifics that may worry you, but combined with your gps or phone info, it creates quite a trail of digital bread crumbs. I imaging the only way to defeat it would be to proactively clear it with something like an OBD scanner. (or just drive analog muscle cars from the 70's-80's. ;-)

It sounds like a real can of worms is opening here,..

 

[table5511]

Before this can of worms gets too speculative, let me chime in. Without saying who I work for, I'm an auto physical damage adjuster, have been doing this for 7 years, and have seen a lot.

fyi, my father-in-law installed the Prog obd2 device in his car and drove very slowly for a month and after that month was over, they offered him a discount of 3 dollars per policy term. That device pretty much measures if you slam on your brakes frequently and if you have a lead foot. That tells the insurance company if you a prone to rear end someone because you don't give adequate spacing and follow too close, and then how aggressive you are on the accelerator. That is pretty much all they need to know.

Now, I have argued my case about trying to get those *kind* of devices to record more data than just braking and accelerating, mainly for claims investigations. As an adjuster, it would be really helpful for me to be able to access such things as were the headlights actually on? what was the speed at the time of the accident, was the person braking? was the check engine light on when they drove the engine to its death? what was the steering angle? if equipped with an accelerometer or gyros, was the vehicle in a slide etc? There are so many scenarios when people are full of it that it would be really helpful for me to be able to take these stored readings.

Basically due to laws and costs involved in upgrading these devices, that is not happening ANY TIME SOON. To upgrade each obdii device to be able to store that much data from that many systems, would cost a TON of money.

I order dealers to run diagnostics all the time, and ecm's only store so much information. ecm's still don't give date/time readings. Usually I can get readings at last time an engine ran such as rpm, any P0--- codes stored, any system failures such as low oil pressure triggering a check engine light or things like that, but unfortunately a lot of ecm's still don't store information that is really needed.

So regarding the insurance company, we have to dig and dig and dig to try and get good diagnostic info, but are still really limited in what we are able to pull from vehicles.
Our only other course of action is to remove fluid samples and send them for analysis, but that requires "permission to remove fluids" forms and is a big headache, mailing hazardous fluids and such.


Don't worry people, your lies unfortunately still work (most of the time).

Just like in the show "Revolution" where the dude says he used to be an insurance adjuster and can tell when someone is a liar... that is very true. I can tell pretty quickly when someone is lying to me lol.

 

[HOLOHOLO]

So regarding the insurance company, we have to dig and dig and dig to try and get good diagnostic info, but are still really limited in what we are able to pull from vehicles.
Our only other course of action is to remove fluid samples and send them for analysis, but that requires "permission to remove fluids" forms and is a big headache, mailing hazardous fluids and such.

Is that the vehicle fluids or the drivers? ;-)

 

[table5511]

You're joking... but you wouldn't believe the kinds of things people leave in cars, besides bodily fluids... used needles, aids tests, used condoms, dead rats, human poop, etc etc.... the general public is disgusting.

 

[HOLOHOLO]

You should write a book.

 

[table5511]

I would be fired so fast...

 

[ceric]

I doubt the toyota rumor. A black box can't really prove if a floormat jammed your accelerator or not. (I had this happen to me BTW - not in gear at the time!).
,..

Not really. But, it can show that the car was accelerating while brake was pressed down.
That usually doesn't happen unless you heel and toe.

 

[table5511]

My father in law has a 2000 Lexus GS300 and I have personally witnessed his car lunge forward with his foot completely off the pedal. Scary.

 

[HOLOHOLO]

Not really. But, it can show that the car was accelerating while brake was pressed down.
That usually doesn't happen unless you heel and toe.

It's harder to jam them both at the same time via the mat, but I could see that being useful info.

In a worse case, the mat clips break (mine) or are detached, and the mat slides forward and up when the driver gets in and out of the car. If it catches both pedals, you're in for a surprise. But first you have to get the car in gear, which requires the brake be held effectively.

 

[HOLOHOLO]

Here's what Mazda tells us in our user manual:

This vehicle is equipped with an event data recorder (EDR). The main purpose of an EDR
is to record, in certain crash or near crash-like situations, such as an air bag deployment or
hitting a road obstacle. The data that will assist in understanding how a vehicle's systems
performed. The EDR is designed to record data related to vehicle dynamics and safety
systems for a short period of time, typically 30 seconds or less. The EDR in this vehicle is
designed to record such data as:

l How various systems in your vehicle were operating;
l Whether or not the driver and passenger safety belts were buckled/fastened;
l How far (if at all) the driver was depressing the accelerator and/or brake pedal; and,
l How fast the vehicle was traveling.
These data can help provide a better understanding of the circumstances in which crashes
and injuries occur.

NOTE
EDR data is recorded by your vehicle only if a non-trivial crash or near crash-like situation occurs;
no data is recorded by the EDR under normal driving conditions and no personal data (e.g., name,
gender, age, and crash location) are recorded. However, other parties, such as law enforcement,
could combine the EDR data with the type of personally identifying data routinely acquired during a
crash investigation.

To read data recorded by an EDR, special equipment is required, and access to the vehicle
or the EDR is needed. In addition to the vehicle manufacturer, other parties, such as law
enforcement, that have the special equipment, can read the information if they have access
to the vehicle or the EDR.

Mazda will not disclose any of the data recorded in an EDR to a third party unless:
l Awritten agreement from the vehicle owner or the lessee is obtained
l Officially requested by the police or other law enforcement authorities
l Used as a defense for Mazda in a law suit, claim, or arbitration
l Ordered by a judge or court
However, if necessary Mazda will:
l Use the data for research on Mazda vehicle performance, including safety.
l Disclose the data or the summarized data to a third party for research purposes without
disclosing vehicle or owner identification information.
9-22
Customer Information and Reporting Safety Defects
Event Data Recorder
CX-9_8CA8-EA-11G_Edition1 Page562
Thursday, June 23 2011 11:6 AM
Form No.

Happy New Year Ya'll! Have a safe and healthy 2013

 

[DDDonkey]

Here's what Mazda tells us in our user manual:

This vehicle is equipped with an event data recorder (EDR). The main purpose of an EDR
is to record, in certain crash or near crash-like situations, such as an air bag deployment or
hitting a road obstacle. The data that will assist in understanding how a vehicle's systems
performed. The EDR is designed to record data related to vehicle dynamics and safety
systems for a short period of time, typically 30 seconds or less. The EDR in this vehicle is
designed to record such data as:

l How various systems in your vehicle were operating;
l Whether or not the driver and passenger safety belts were buckled/fastened;
l How far (if at all) the driver was depressing the accelerator and/or brake pedal; and,
l How fast the vehicle was traveling.
These data can help provide a better understanding of the circumstances in which crashes
and injuries occur.

NOTE
EDR data is recorded by your vehicle only if a non-trivial crash or near crash-like situation occurs;
no data is recorded by the EDR under normal driving conditions and no personal data (e.g., name,
gender, age, and crash location) are recorded. However, other parties, such as law enforcement,
could combine the EDR data with the type of personally identifying data routinely acquired during a
crash investigation.

To read data recorded by an EDR, special equipment is required, and access to the vehicle
or the EDR is needed. In addition to the vehicle manufacturer, other parties, such as law
enforcement, that have the special equipment, can read the information if they have access
to the vehicle or the EDR.

Mazda will not disclose any of the data recorded in an EDR to a third party unless:
l Awritten agreement from the vehicle owner or the lessee is obtained
l Officially requested by the police or other law enforcement authorities
l Used as a defense for Mazda in a law suit, claim, or arbitration
l Ordered by a judge or court
However, if necessary Mazda will:
l Use the data for research on Mazda vehicle performance, including safety.
l Disclose the data or the summarized data to a third party for research purposes without
disclosing vehicle or owner identification information.
9-22
Customer Information and Reporting Safety Defects
Event Data Recorder
CX-9_8CA8-EA-11G_Edition1 Page562
Thursday, June 23 2011 11:6 AM
Form No.

Happy New Year Ya'll! Have a safe and healthy 2013

OK, so were is it and how do I remove it? This is the reason I dont have on-star working in my truck.

 

[Bob2525]

I dont see what the big deal is. I dont care if they know where I drive. I'm not doing anything illegal or anything, so if they want to know I drove to Chicago for a weekend away, oh well. They can already do that with existing technology anyway on other devices, so vehicles are just another one to add to the list. I'm sure not losing any sleep over it.