ARP Head Studs ?

[ForceFed]

Just a quick question....

The paperwork that came with my head studs lists specified torque installation values for installing the studs...but it is a general Spec sheet..not application (CAR) Specific.

Shuld I use their torque values or should I use Mazdas for the head bolts?

I thought these were supposed to be installed to a "Torque Angle"?

Or is that just the Main Studs?

Thanks in advance for the answers guys.
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[Maxx Mazda]

Torque the studs themselves to 90 ft lbs, then the nuts for the studs to 95 ft lbs. I reaserched long and hard to find those values, but that's what they are. Don't forget to use the moly lube or your torque values aren't accurate. Remember to torque the nuts in stages, in the proper order listed in the engine rebuild manual. Start by doing them all at 60, then 75, then 95, etc...

 

[2.0t03speed]

sub

 

[ForceFed]

See....Where did you get that info Maxx?

My sheet with the ARP's say to torque tem to 70ft./lbs. when using Moly lube
Or 85 ft./Lbs. if using 30 wt.

I have the ARP Assembly lube I will be using on everyting while assembling...but I want to make sure thatthis is done properly the first time.

And exactly how are you supposed to torque these down?

Run a nut all the way down...Or double nut them?

I feel that only running the nut all the wat down will give you a true reading?

 

[low_psi]

Use whatever spec is included in the packaging. As you see, there are two different values depending on whether you use the ARP lube or motor oil.

Lube the top threads of the stud where the nut will thread on, not where they go into the block. Snug the studs with a t-handle into the block. Lay head gasket onto motor and place cylinder head on top. Lube washers and nuts, snug them in the factory spec'd rotation onto the studs. Then tq them to half final value, then fully torque them.

DO NOT torque the studs and do not use Mazda fastener specs. The spec sheet included with the ARPs is fastener specific and sometimes application specific(ie. iron block/alum head or alum block/alum head).Do not double nut, you shouldn't have any extra fasteners.

 

[Maxx Mazda]

^^^ Incorrect. If you don't lube the studs into the block, and then tighten the nuts onto them, the studs will continue to spin further into the block, and the nuts won't be even. (Some studs will be in deeper than others.) I got the info from a good bit of research I did on this forum as well as from ARP directly. I asked ARP about their torque values included with the studs, and had them look it up to be certain. I gave the stud diameter, etc and had them look it up and they gave me the specs I posted above, which were congruent with another post on this forum made by Beau or Nick from MPI, I can't remember which one. There was a big thread on it with about 100 pages of bulls***, but I sifted through and found the correct info.

Now, I find that double nutting to torque the studs themselves into the block works best, as the allen key heads can be tricky.

 

[Maxx Mazda]

See....Where did you get that info Maxx?

My sheet with the ARP's say to torque tem to 70ft./lbs. when using Moly lube
Or 85 ft./Lbs. if using 30 wt.

Exactly what I mean. Torque WHAT to 70 ft/lbs? The studs themselves, or the nuts? That very sheet bred my confusion, and led to my call to ARP.

 

[ForceFed]

I am strictly talking Torqing the Studs into the head.....

And I will be a Son of a .....
I didn't even realize the Studs had Allen Inserts....
I just pulled mine out and looked at them..sure enough they do.

Easy enough for me..I have Allen Key sockets.
Troque wrench and those=done.

And I will use Mazdas spec for the Nuts though to tighten the head down ..Correct?

I want to start getting this back togeter..I am T-Minus 6 weeks from wanting to be 95% done with this beast....Then its time to start on the GN.

 

[ForceFed]

Low PSI...Can you elaborate..I thought for sure the Stud needed torqued into the block as well.
I cant tell if the specs are for toquing into the block..or for torquing down the nuts?

 

[low_psi]

The included specs from ARP are for the nuts only. In the dozens of motors I've assembled using ARP head studs, not once have the studs been torqued and not one customer had a problem. The owner of the shop has also done it this way for more years than I can count.

Maxx- I do stand corrected. I use motor oil on the threads that go into the block. ARP lube on the rest.

EDIT- I don't see how you can torque a stud with a 5mm allen socket to 90ftlbs w/o damaging it. If the stud needed to be torqued ARP would make the tip hexagonal to allow for such a high torque.

 

[Maxx Mazda]

The included specs from ARP are for the nuts only. In the dozens of motors I've assembled using ARP head studs, not once have the studs been torqued and not one customer had a problem. The owner of the shop has also done it this way for more years than I can count.

Maxx- I do stand corrected. I use motor oil on the threads that go into the block. ARP lube on the rest.

EDIT- I don't see how you can torque a stud with a 5mm allen socket to 90ftlbs w/o damaging it. If the stud needed to be torqued ARP would make the tip hexagonal to allow for such a high torque.

If you don't torque the studs into the block, when you torque the nuts down, the studs will spin further in. Torque the studs into the block using the double nut method, and then torque the nuts once the head is on. Really, it takes an extra 15 mins, what have you got to lose?

Also Matt DO NOT USE FACTORY TORQUE SPECS ON THE NUTS! The factory bolts are torque to yield, so it's like 30 ft lbs plus 180* or something liek that. The ARP bolts don't stretch like the stock ones, so they need to be torqued differently. Do them in sequence, and step the torque values too to keep from pinching your head gasket.

 

[ForceFed]

If you don't torque the studs into the block, when you torque the nuts down, the studs will spin further in. Torque the studs into the block using the double nut method, and then torque the nuts once the head is on. Really, it takes an extra 15 mins, what have you got to lose?

Also Matt DO NOT USE FACTORY TORQUE SPECS ON THE NUTS! The factory bolts are torque to yield, so it's like 30 ft lbs plus 180* or something liek that. The ARP bolts don't stretch like the stock ones, so they need to be torqued differently. Do them in sequence, and step the torque values too to keep from pinching your head gasket.

Yeah yeah...I forgot they werre TTY....I knew that too...DOh.

And LowPSI has a good point...with all of the time and money ARP has into fasteners..if they needed to be torqued..it would be much easier on them to put a Hex ead on them Vs. the allen.

I think LowPSI has it right...THe spec is for THe nut...Studs will only go in so far...Snug them in n then torque the nuts....This sounds right to me.

 

[Maxx Mazda]

It sounds right, but in practice it's not. I tried that, and when I torqued the nuts down, some of the studs spun and went in further. Seriously, it's an extra 10 minutes for peace of mind...

 

[ForceFed]

Its not about "time"..at all.
I will call SRP tomorrow and see what they say...And my Builder..I know he knows...I just figured I would ask here since its the weekend.

 

[low_psi]

The stud should turn a little. ARP includes different torque values depending on the lubricant used and the extra stud movement is accounted for. The nut gives you all the clamping force you need. Why would you torque a stud? Do you torque studs on any other application?

 

[ForceFed]

The stud should turn a little. ARP includes different torque values depending on the lubricant used and the extra stud movement is accounted for. The nut gives you all the clamping force you need. Why would you torque a stud? Do you torque studs on any other application?

See..I agree...because the Nut and Stud will only Turn until the Required Torque Seting is reached then "Click"
Nut and stud are then at the required torque setting.

 

[low_psi]

Now go put that sweet head on!

 

[Jaysanooch]

Well my builder torqued them to 70lbs with the moly and he put the studs in snug...that's it. Then the next day I read that 100 page thread on the subject and I also asked a few people on here. So I went back to the shop and he got all defensive that I was questioning his work....and that he only follows Arp's recommendations and had never had a blown gasket.

The discussion was getting pretty heated...so I left it at that. He said if I wanted to torque them to 80 or 90lbs...he would do it but would charge me an hour labour. I said forget it...if it's good with him, it's good with me.

Now if ever I get to 15psi++ one day, I'll just re-torque the head. At only 8psi...I'm not worried yet.

 

[ForceFed]

Where is this 100+pg. thread..How did I miss that thing?

 

[Jaysanooch]

Probably wasn't 100 pages...I'll try to find it when I get a chance.