Anyone ever try a TMIC bypass when using a CAI?

[Speedy3]

I'm just curious. Just thinking about the thermodynamics of the MS TMIC, It seems extremely innefficient at low speeds. The air comes in and has to deflect up and to the sides of an already hot valve cover, swirling the hot air back around the engine compartment and around the TMIC. Aside from getting a FMIC so to keep it in warranty, what about removing the TMIC and bypassing it with an insulated, hose from the turbo to the intake? No vanes to restrict the air-flow, just pure, straight through air-flow. It would have to be well insulated to keep the air temp from the CAI low. I think at low speeds, it will actually boost the HP a little.

Sounds like another experiment and data log for me!

 

[justa4banger]

Stop thinking. Go find a good tread on intercoolers and once you come back a little wiser you'll see you comment is silly at best.

No........... losing the IC will not help you, IT WILL hurt you. Ask any mid 80's Merkur owner they had the same motors my SVO has (2.3 turbo) and they didn't have IC's, just straight pipe. they were notorious for cracking heads.

You have to cool the charge unless you just want to run lower boost.

Also any TMIC has pro's and con's

 

[flyrevs]

I'm just curious. Just thinking about the thermodynamics of the MS TMIC, It seems extremely innefficient at low speeds. The air comes in and has to deflect up and to the sides of an already hot valve cover, swirling the hot air back around the engine compartment and around the TMIC. Aside from getting a FMIC so to keep it in warranty, what about removing the TMIC and bypassing it with an insulated, hose from the turbo to the intake? No vanes to restrict the air-flow, just pure, straight through air-flow. It would have to be well insulated to keep the air temp from the CAI low. I think at low speeds, it will actually boost the HP a little.

Sounds like another experiment and data log for me!

Come on man, you should know forcing extremely HOT compressed air into your motor is gonna do bad stuff!! Why do you think they go to all the trouble and expense to out the IC on the car ? (uhm)(rlaugh)(rlaugh)(dance)

 

[Kansei]

Yeah I don't care how much heatsoak the top mount intercooler gets, as soon as you are moving there is air blowing on that intercooler and it's cooling your charge air.

 

[shark77]

Stop thinking. Go find a good tread on intercoolers and once you come back a little wiser you'll see you comment is silly at best.

Give him a break... Speedy3 has provided us with about 75% of the data/testing material on this board. (thumb)


Speedy3's question:
Will the colder charge of air from a CAI help reduce the outlet temperature from the turbo? Thus allowing for a the removal of the IC for better flow. Will this produce more power?

My answer:
Lets start with some assumptions (hypothetical)...

(A) Under the hood intake temp = 100F

(B) CAI temp draws air = 65F

Stock IC = 3psi pressure drop and is 70% effcient

At 5psi of boost:
(A) Temp = 318F Density = 1.09g/L
(B) Temp = 269F Density = 1.17g/L
Outlet temp difference = 49F

With stock IC:
(A) Temp = 141F difference from no IC = 177F
(A) Density = 1.20g/L

(B) Temp = 126F difference from no IC = 143F
(B) Density = 1.23g/L

At 10psi of boost:
(A) Temp = 357F Density = 1.31g/L
(B) Temp = 306F Density = 1.40g/L
Outlet temp difference = 51F

With stock IC:
(A) Temp = 153F difference from no IC = 204F
(A) Density = 1.53g/L

(B) Temp = 137F difference from no IC = 169F
(B) Density = 1.57g/L

At 15.6psi of boost:
(A) Temp = 398F Density = 1.53g/L
(B) Temp = 344F Density = 1.63g/L
Outlet temp difference = 54F

With stock IC:
(A) Temp = 165F difference from no IC = 233F
(A) Density = 1.89g/L

(B) Temp = 149F difference from no IC = 195F
(B) Density = 1.94g/L

Conclusion

This tells us that at 5psi, a CAI w/no IC will make 2.5% less power than a stock intake w/IC.

At 10psi, stock setup would increase its power by 9.2%.

At 15.6psi stock setup would be at a power advantage of ~16% over a non IC CAI setup.

This is all assuming that you didn't run into detonation problems, but from strictly looking at temperature, pressure loss, and compression, there is no benefit of running without an intercooler even at low boost. And when you throw in the safety margin the IC provides it just makes it that much more of an important part to have.

 

[Speedy3]

Give him a break... Speedy3 has provided us with about 75% of the data/testing material on this board. (thumb)


Speedy3's question:
Will the colder charge of air from a CAI help reduce the outlet temperature from the turbo? Thus allowing for a the removal of the IC for better flow. Will this produce more power?

My answer:
Lets start with some assumptions (hypothetical)...

(A) Under the hood intake temp = 100F

(B) CAI temp draws air = 65F

Stock IC = 3psi pressure drop and is 70% effcient

At 5psi of boost:
(A) Temp = 318F Density = 1.09g/L
(B) Temp = 269F Density = 1.17g/L
Outlet temp difference = 49F

With stock IC:
(A) Temp = 141F difference from no IC = 177F
(A) Density = 1.20g/L

(B) Temp = 126F difference from no IC = 143F
(B) Density = 1.23g/L

At 10psi of boost:
(A) Temp = 357F Density = 1.31g/L
(B) Temp = 306F Density = 1.40g/L
Outlet temp difference = 51F

With stock IC:
(A) Temp = 153F difference from no IC = 204F
(A) Density = 1.53g/L

(B) Temp = 137F difference from no IC = 169F
(B) Density = 1.57g/L

At 15.6psi of boost:
(A) Temp = 398F Density = 1.53g/L
(B) Temp = 344F Density = 1.63g/L
Outlet temp difference = 54F

With stock IC:
(A) Temp = 165F difference from no IC = 233F
(A) Density = 1.89g/L

(B) Temp = 149F difference from no IC = 195F
(B) Density = 1.94g/L

Conclusion

This tells us that at 5psi, a CAI w/no IC will make 2.5% less power than a stock intake w/IC.

At 10psi, stock setup would increase its power by 9.2%.

At 15.6psi stock setup would be at a power advantage of ~16% over a non IC CAI setup.

This is all assuming that you didn't run into detonation problems, but from strictly looking at temperature, pressure loss, and compression, there is no benefit of running without an intercooler even at low boost. And when you throw in the safety margin the IC provides it just makes it that much more of an important part to have.

Very nice! That is the kind of response for which I was looking! I just didn't feel like digging through the garage and getting out my Thermodynamics book.

Thanks again for the analysis.

 

[justa4banger]

I guess i came off hrash, but comon if the IC weren't important, then why have them?

 

[Speedy3]

I guess i came off hrash, but comon if the IC weren't important, then why have them?

IC's are effective when air is passing through them. In order to cool the intake air, you need air passing through the IC to exchange the heat. My original point was that at low speeds, the airflow may not be enough, with the engine heat inside the engine compartment, to lower the intake temperature more than what is coming from the turbo. My whole point was about low speeds. It would be rediculous to claim the engine would be more powerful without the IC.

This is all really a moot point considering that 1st gear already has enough power/torque. Any more, would just reduce the life of the tires.

 

[Mutmatt]

Give him a break... Speedy3 has provided us with about 75% of the data/testing material on this board. (thumb)


Speedy3's question:
Will the colder charge of air from a CAI help reduce the outlet temperature from the turbo? Thus allowing for a the removal of the IC for better flow. Will this produce more power?

My answer:
Lets start with some assumptions (hypothetical)...

(A) Under the hood intake temp = 100F

(B) CAI temp draws air = 65F

Stock IC = 3psi pressure drop and is 70% effcient

At 5psi of boost:
(A) Temp = 318F Density = 1.09g/L
(B) Temp = 269F Density = 1.17g/L
Outlet temp difference = 49F

With stock IC:
(A) Temp = 141F difference from no IC = 177F
(A) Density = 1.20g/L

(B) Temp = 126F difference from no IC = 143F
(B) Density = 1.23g/L

At 10psi of boost:
(A) Temp = 357F Density = 1.31g/L
(B) Temp = 306F Density = 1.40g/L
Outlet temp difference = 51F

With stock IC:
(A) Temp = 153F difference from no IC = 204F
(A) Density = 1.53g/L

(B) Temp = 137F difference from no IC = 169F
(B) Density = 1.57g/L

At 15.6psi of boost:
(A) Temp = 398F Density = 1.53g/L
(B) Temp = 344F Density = 1.63g/L
Outlet temp difference = 54F

With stock IC:
(A) Temp = 165F difference from no IC = 233F
(A) Density = 1.89g/L

(B) Temp = 149F difference from no IC = 195F
(B) Density = 1.94g/L

Conclusion

This tells us that at 5psi, a CAI w/no IC will make 2.5% less power than a stock intake w/IC.

At 10psi, stock setup would increase its power by 9.2%.

At 15.6psi stock setup would be at a power advantage of ~16% over a non IC CAI setup.

This is all assuming that you didn't run into detonation problems, but from strictly looking at temperature, pressure loss, and compression, there is no benefit of running without an intercooler even at low boost. And when you throw in the safety margin the IC provides it just makes it that much more of an important part to have.

one of the best posts i've seen backed up by thought in a long time! Kudos to you my good sir or madam (no offense)

 

[msp35]

How long were you dying to throw up some numbers like that??? lol

 

[tsunami]

nicely done shark a lot of people could learn from that post.... how did you come to the conclusion that the stock ic was 70% efficient did you just take an educated guess (as thats about normal for oem) or has their been any testing done to verify it... just curious...