20psi on mazdaspeed 6???

[MS6freek]

You will probably see gains, but did you read the post with the graph. Once you push the compressor past its efiiciency range, you are heating the air more than you should, and therefore you COULD end up losing power. I am willing to bet that the first pull will be better, and as you get heatsoaked, you will see drastic changes due to you spinning the turbo out of its efficiency range.

this turbo here is good till 25psi !!! so how 18psi would loose power???

a graph is just a graph, in todays cars u have to try stuff to see if they are good or not. i tried and it works perfectly and the power is there.

where are you guys located??? we should do a big meet like at the track or something!!

 

[crossbow]

p5freek,

I'm not saying its not possible to raise boost. I'm also not saying that you won't see an increase in power from raising the boost.

What I am saying is the compressor map for the turbo in the MPS 6 is already leaving its effeciency range, at stock boost, past 5500 rpm.

Every turbo has a sweet spot, or an "island". This is the area where the turbo performs best, with the least amount of heat generated for the work done. This is the center part of the compressor map. (looks like an island).

As you leave the center of the compressor map, more and more heat is generated by the turbo. Eventually it reaches the point where the turbo is actually doing nothing but blowing hot air, and is incapable of actually providing the CFM required by the engine, regardless of the psi you set the car too.

At 19psi, on the compressor map shown for a Hitachi-Warner K04 (the turbo in the MPS 6), the turbo is already dropping in efficency as early as 4,000 rpm. By 5,000 you're completely off the chart, and by 6,000, you're so far off the chart it's not even funny.

http://www.turbosaturns.net/articles/compressor%20maps.htm

http://forums.turbobricks.com/archive/index.php/t-5981.html

The effect of lower compressor efficency is more heat. More heat means a less dense charge, which results in less power. There is a cross-over point where the amount of heat produced by the turbo being out of its efficency range exceeds the amount of power gained by the increase in psi.

If you check out either of those two book's I've mentioned, you'll see that increasing boost is actually one of the last recommended ways of increasing power in an FI engine. There are much smarter and safer ways of attacking power gains then fiddling with boost control.

 

[Jeph]

p5freek,

I'm not saying its not possible to raise boost. I'm also not saying that you won't see an increase in power from raising the boost.

What I am saying is the compressor map for the turbo in the MPS 6 is already leaving its effeciency range, at stock boost, past 5500 rpm.

Every turbo has a sweet spot, or an "island". This is the area where the turbo performs best, with the least amount of heat generated for the work done. This is the center part of the compressor map. (looks like an island).

As you leave the center of the compressor map, more and more heat is generated by the turbo. Eventually it reaches the point where the turbo is actually doing nothing but blowing hot air, and is incapable of actually providing the CFM required by the engine, regardless of the psi you set the car too.

At 19psi, on the compressor map shown for a Hitachi-Warner K04 (the turbo in the MPS 6), the turbo is already dropping in efficency as early as 4,000 rpm. By 5,000 you're completely off the chart, and by 6,000, you're so far off the chart it's not even funny.

http://www.turbosaturns.net/articles/compressor%20maps.htm

http://forums.turbobricks.com/archive/index.php/t-5981.html

The effect of lower compressor efficency is more heat. More heat means a less dense charge, which results in less power. There is a cross-over point where the amount of heat produced by the turbo being out of its efficency range exceeds the amount of power gained by the increase in psi.

If you check out either of those two book's I've mentioned, you'll see that increasing boost is actually one of the last recommended ways of increasing power in an FI engine. There are much smarter and safer ways of attacking power gains then fiddling with boost control.

Exactly. I tried explaining it simply, but your explanation is much better

 

[MazdaSpeed 6 :)]

Exactly. I tried explaining it simply, but your explanation is much better

Ok Guy's What is the way to boost the turbo without getting out of your island . If you put a front mount intercooler it will cold the air a lot more than the stock one . Honnestly now with my boost controller I'm doing 0 to 250 in 8 sec less than the stock one and the boost is always constant it not like my protege speed that after a run of 15 min the turbo was DEAD.

But now i'm pushing it to the maxx all day long and I dont see any lost in power . it alway stable and boosting to the top ....

Maybe it not the better way to do it . But even if I set is to 15 psi it still 15 up to the top rev. And It doing a Big Big Big difference on the high road when you race a M3 or a S4 even I race a porche carrera 4 and I was not far behind up to 250 ... for me it good enought when the warranty is going to be over I will spend more to boost the turbo and change it ...

 

[MazdaSpeed 6 :)]

Ok Guy's I sorry for everything your to good for me

I'm putting my car back to stock.

and Ill wait to have my turbo licence before doing mods

Sorry agains !!!

 

[Jeph]

What is your problem? We aren't telling you that you should put your car back to stock. You are taking things way to personally. Chill out and ust listen, there is a lot of useful information on the forum, but if you take everything as an attack at you, you'll never learn from what other people have to say.

 

[Chris-BE]

He's being funny Jeph. I'll donate $10 to the cause and help get his car on a dyno.

 

[ssinstaller]

He's being funny Jeph. I'll donate $10 to the cause and help get his car on a dyno.

X2


I'm all for turning up the boost, I'd just like to see some AFR's and mabey some intake air temps at 16~17 psi at 7k rpm.

 

[MS6freek]

crossbow! i will not say that you are wrong ok , but it works man and every car reacts different to the temperature. im in montreal canada so here it is a bit colder then u guys in the states. so the turbo already gets colder air!!!

so the map u are showing it is just to learn , but it is not that that will proove to you that the turbo is dead after 5500rpm!!!!

before my mazdaspeed 6 , i had a protege 5 2002 turbo (gt28rs) , 2 bottles of nitrous!!! i was boosting 20psi and the turbo never lost his power.

yeh for sure that at 7000rpm maybe u dont get the same power as in 5500rpm but it is still power that you are not getting right now because the stock boost is dropping to much!!! (enguard)

 

[4DRHTRD]

crossbow! i will not say that you are wrong ok , but it works man and every car reacts different to the temperature. im in montreal canada so here it is a bit colder then u guys in the states. so the turbo already gets colder air!!!

so the map u are showing it is just to learn , but it is not that that will proove to you that the turbo is dead after 5500rpm!!!!

before my mazdaspeed 6 , i had a protege 5 2002 turbo (gt28rs) , 2 bottles of nitrous!!! i was boosting 20psi and the turbo never lost his power.

yeh for sure that at 7000rpm maybe u dont get the same power as in 5500rpm but it is still power that you are not getting right now because the stock boost is dropping to much!!! (enguard)

I don't think you understand what that map truly means. Just because the turbo continues to put out boost doesn't mean it's "good" boost. The hotter the intake air the worse it is for the engine. Even if you started with ambient air temps below freezing the turbo will super heat the intake air and put it out to the engine. In 1st, 2nd and 3rd it won't be noticeable but in the higher gears where you'll stay in the 5500 to 7000 RPM range for a longer time is where you can potentially do serious damage to your motor through detonation. The key would be to measure the air temps as they enter the motor - post intercooler. I like to see the turbo giving full boost to the upper RPM ranges just not at the expense of knock and pinging. On the road you may never hear the pinging and knock at high RPM's and high MPH but when you're on a dyno you will. Another way is to OBD2 scan the car while making that pull and see if the knock counter increments.
Mike

 

[4DRHTRD]

One more thing, parts are ordered and I'll have a solution for the intercooler setup. After that we're going to work on a turbo upgrade that will bolt in. We can only hope that there's enough fuel stock to compensate for the additional boost without getting dangerously lean. My goal for my wife's speed6 is 350 WHP. Pictures, dynos and more coming over the next few weeks.
Mike

 

[MS6freek]

I don't think you understand what that map truly means. Just because the turbo continues to put out boost doesn't mean it's "good" boost. The hotter the intake air the worse it is for the engine. Even if you started with ambient air temps below freezing the turbo will super heat the intake air and put it out to the engine. In 1st, 2nd and 3rd it won't be noticeable but in the higher gears where you'll stay in the 5500 to 7000 RPM range for a longer time is where you can potentially do serious damage to your motor through detonation. The key would be to measure the air temps as they enter the motor - post intercooler. I like to see the turbo giving full boost to the upper RPM ranges just not at the expense of knock and pinging. On the road you may never hear the pinging and knock at high RPM's and high MPH but when you're on a dyno you will. Another way is to OBD2 scan the car while making that pull and see if the knock counter increments.
Mike

ok i see

 

[Spool-N-Up]

So I put the mbc on the speed6...not what I was looking for. True it was easy to put on...

T'ed to the turbo then on the mbc...plugged off the top of the wastegate and top of the solenoid...ran the other line to the mbc and bov.


Boost through gears was sluggish and it didnt hold any better. Theres got to be something wrong or something i had missed. Fuel cut hit at 16-17psi.

 

[AWD6]

anyone got some websites for these MBC and sites with an install or explain how to put it in?

 

[Spool-N-Up]

anyone got some websites for these MBC and sites with an install or explain how to put it in?

there is no website made for this install...its just the way all MBC's work...for this case the MBC over-rides the solenoid (ecu boost) and any mbc will work. p5freek was the first to do it on here i think...he got it to work somehow

 

[MS6freek]

there is no website made for this install...its just the way all MBC's work...for this case the MBC over-rides the solenoid (ecu boost) and any mbc will work. p5freek was the first to do it on here i think...he got it to work somehow

it works perfectly

 

[Spool-N-Up]

it works perfectly

So let me see if I got this right...

you T'd into the hose from the bottom of the actuator and and turbo connecting this to the bottom of the MBC

plugged off the line coming to and from the actuator and solenoid

then ran the other side of the MBC to the BOV hose

 

[txrxs]

damn, some of you guys are ******* tards.

 

[MS6freek]

damn, some of you guys are ******* tards.

loll why is that

 

[Rainman]

We can all reserve our own judgment as to the sensibility of this current course of action. However, lets not resort to calling each other names and such.

If anyone has something of value to add, preferably with data to back it up, do so because talk is cheap. However, if we can only add ignorant comments about one another lets just not say anything at all. No need to have yet another thread closed for playground behaviour.

Now, with that rant aside, there are options for replacing the K04 turbo while using the stock flange. Check out ATP Turbo at http://www.atpturbo.com/root/releases/release041205.htm to see their Eliminator Series for K03 and K04 tubos. Raising the boost in conjunction with a FMIC, upgraded intake and exhaust, and with an Eliminator turbo kit MIGHT just be the answer we are looking for. However, were it me, I wouldn't start by raising the boost.

I have had my MSP for almost 3 years. I have done most of the simple things without forging the motor (forged pistons on order, forged rods sitting in the basement) and I STILL haven't raised the boost on it yet. With all the mods currently, the MSP peaks at 9 PSI and holds 7.5 PSI sustained, but I don't want to chance grenading the engine without the proper supporting mods.

The MS6 should be no different. Until you have all of the supporting mods including a WB02 with data-logging and a dyno to tune, it just seems like asking for trouble to raise the boost on the MS6.

Not like I know much, but just my $0.02 CAN ($0.018 USD).

R