1st Upgrade, Cobb vs TurboXS

[ChazSpeed]

I am looking to do my first upgrade to the car, and I am thinking about doing the stage1 package from turboXS which will get me their downpipe and racepipe.

From there I would probably get the cobb tuner and the correct map.

One of my buddies suggesting getting the cobb downpipe instead because he is a huge fan, and knows the quality would be good.

So here is the question:

Cobb downpipe for $600+ or TurboXS stage1 for $430+

I figure the downpipe is the most bang for my buck if I go with TurboXS, but wanted to get opinions.

An intake (probably cobb SRI) would come soon after.

Also should I get a motor mount before any of this? or is stock fine with handling the extra power?

Thanks!

 

[b e z]

From what i have read throughout on here you will definetly want to get a motor mount and then most people think an intake is the best bang for your buck. I do know someone bought a downpipe off ebay for 150 and the guy really liked it and it turned out well. So if i was you i would start out with a intake,tip, and motor mount.

 

[SubieKiller3]

If your talking about modding your car in "stages" then a downpipe is more like a stage 4. You need to do some more research before modding. Anyone will tell you that a motor mount and/or intake should be the very first step when modding the ms3

 

[ChazSpeed]

This is the "Staged" upgrade I am talking about. http://www.mazdaspeedstore.com/mazd...-Pack-3253-Ft-lbs--291-Wheel-Horse-p-228.html

The Cobb Sri gets about 11hp right? But the down pipe gets 35-40..

So Cobb Sri is ~$15 per hp gained, down pipe is ~$10 per hp gained...

I probably will go with the mount either way, but it sounds like you get bigger gains from the down pipe upgrade. Also if you have the down pipe you should be able to put the tuner on and get a 10% hp gain without the SRI.

That is why I was thinking that combo worked well.

Perhaps I just believe the marketing too much on the down pipe?

 

[ChazSpeed]

So noting the thoughts on hp gained per dollar spent The Cobb down pipe isn't as good as the SRI, but the turbo xs is better than the SRI. Is the turbo xs combo pack a good buy? Is there a reason why the Cobb down pipe is $200 more? Is it mostly the cat on the cobb dp that drives that price or is the turbo xs a bad buy?

 

[ChazSpeed]

From what i have read throughout on here you will definetly want to get a motor mount and then most people think an intake is the best bang for your buck. I do know someone bought a downpipe off ebay for 150 and the guy really liked it and it turned out well. So if i was you i would start out with a intake,tip, and motor mount.

i am thinking they say the intake is good as the first cheaper upgrade, but I am thinking best hp gain for $500-$600 spent.

 

[SubieKiller3]

The stock intake is very restrictive. You will benefit more from the downpipe with a better intake. But hey, its your money and your car. Do whatever you want. Just trying to give you some good advice.

 

[frodaddyweez]

Don't think it is recommended to do so much to the exhaust side without doing something to the intake side too. Also whenever you do a DP, you should get a HPFP.

As far as the price of the different DPs, keep in mind the COBB has a high flow cat, while the TurboXS one doesn't IIRC. Cats make them more expensive but you will still pass emissions and not have to worry about a pesky CEL.

 

[ChazSpeed]

Don't think it is recommended to do so much to the exhaust side without doing something to the intake side too. Also whenever you do a DP, you should get a HPFP.

As far as the price of the different DPs, keep in mind the COBB has a high flow cat, while the TurboXS one doesn't IIRC. Cats make them more expensive but you will still pass emissions and not have to worry about a pesky CEL.

Good to hear the cost diff is probably due to the cat... I hadn't heard about needing the HPFP on the down pipe, I thought it was more of a threshold thing (e.g. you have added an intake, an FMIC, an downpipe, racepipe, and a high boost BPV), but if the downpipe alone is enough to need the HPFP then I may stay away from it for now and just go intake, and AP, with a cat/resonator rip out...

 

[KillerSpeed3]

Well on the Speed3s the most restrictive part is the downpipe and the rest of the exhaust system. TurboXS in my opinion is good quality and with Cobb you are paying for the name just like with HKS. And upgrading the intake won't gain much if any peak hp but will help with other upgrades. The 11 hp it is rated to gain isn't a lie though but it isn't peak hp. Throughout the hp range you will gain around 11 hp at a different rpms like around 3000 or 6500 (not actual numbers, just a guess) but not at the peak which is around 5500 if that makes sense. Intake is a good first step and you most like won't need to get a tune but with a DP you will most likely need to. Honestly if you want a Big Gain go with the downpipe and racepipe but realize that you will most likely end up getting an intake later anyway but don't spend a lot for it or just get an OE filter and keep the stock piping (don't waste $400 on a shiny pipe and filter just get a cheap one) the power won't be much different between HKS, Cobb, TurboXS, Injen, ebay, etc.

Edit: when comparing the brands at the end I was only talking about intakes not anthing else. And the DP & Racepipe will gain around 30-40 peak hp from what I understand.

 

[ChazSpeed]

Well on the Speed3s the most restrictive part is the downpipe and the rest of the exhaust system. TurboXS in my opinion is good quality and with Cobb you are paying for the name just like with HKS. And upgrading the intake won't gain much if any peak hp but will help with other upgrades. The 11 hp it is rated to gain isn't a lie though but it isn't peak hp. Throughout the hp range you will gain around 11 hp at a different rpms like around 3000 or 6500 (not actual numbers, just a guess) but not at the peak which is around 5500 if that makes sense. Intake is a good first step and you most like won't need to get a tune but with a DP you will most likely need to. Honestly if you want a Big Gain go with the downpipe and racepipe but realize that you will most likely end up getting an intake later anyway but don't spend a lot for it or just get an OE filter and keep the stock piping (don't waste $400 on a shiny pipe and filter just get a cheap one) the power won't be much different between HKS, Cobb, TurboXS, Injen, ebay, etc.

Edit: when comparing the brands at the end I was only talking about intakes not anthing else. And the DP & Racepipe will gain around 30-40 peak hp from what I understand.

Sooo, go with the DP/RP from turbo XS, but I will more than likely need to get a tune which I assumes mean getting the AP and map for it at that point.

Any thoughts on when the HPFP is needed (e.g. definitely with the DP upgrade)? Or is that mostly a matter of finding out once you have done more with the car?

 

[SubieKiller3]

U can always just monitor your fuel pressure with the AP, then if it looks like its about to crap out then u can upgrade the fuel pump(hpfp).

 

[frodaddyweez]

Good to hear the cost diff is probably due to the cat... I hadn't heard about needing the HPFP on the down pipe, I thought it was more of a threshold thing (e.g. you have added an intake, an FMIC, an downpipe, racepipe, and a high boost BPV), but if the downpipe alone is enough to need the HPFP then I may stay away from it for now and just go intake, and AP, with a cat/resonator rip out...

Well I guess it might not be needed if its the only mod. Most people I know, including me, have done other easier and cheaper mods first (Intake, RMM, Shifter Bushings, etc.) before a DP. So a HPFP was needed. Also, doing the intake was very gratifying not only bc of the added power, but you could hear the turbo spool while you were driving around and the stock bpv too.

Fully bolted minus an exhaust mani, i was fine on my stock pump during the summer. As soon as it got colder, I started to experience fuel cut and got some HPFP internals.

But definitely get something to monitor your engine vitals when you do something major like a DP. Another good and relatively cheap full DP is the CNT Racing one. But you need to get an adapter they sell too if youre going to mate it up to the stock exhaust.

 

[KillerSpeed3]

Sooo, go with the DP/RP from turbo XS, but I will more than likely need to get a tune which I assumes mean getting the AP and map for it at that point.

Any thoughts on when the HPFP is needed (e.g. definitely with the DP upgrade)? Or is that mostly a matter of finding out once you have done more with the car?

IMO Turboxs is a fine brand but if you really want to get a Cobb go right aheadd the are a good brand too. Really it is only exhaust piping and the % of bend is what helps make the power by being less restrictive, so any brand should acomplish basically the same thing. I mean Maximal Performance is a small buisness that speciallizes in 3000gt performance parts and sells the least restrictve cat-back and it is only $185 which is almost 4 times less than any other system and there stuff is quality so higher price doesn't always mean better quality. And the MS3s run pretty rich stock so I wouldn't worry right now but I would definatly get something to monitor it to see if you want/need to upgrade to a HPFP but if you are going to do all of the "Staged Upgrades" at MazdaSpeedStore then you might just want to get it now so you don't have to worry about it and maybe bigger injectors as well. As far as a tune i think the AP would be fine as long as the tuner/shop knows how to tune on it. But you could also get a standback or any other fuel management system.

 

[MSMS3]

Wow! Lots of different opinions here. Anyone but me actually running the TurboXS "Stealthback"? That's their catless 3 inch dp/rp combo into stock CBE? I think that's probably what OP is considering.

Let me give you my own experience for what it is worth.

Posters who are saying to address the intake side first are correct.

An engine is basically a pump. It pumps air and fuel in, burns the fuel and oxygen to make power and discharges the byproduct as exhaust. You have to increase flow to increase power. The stock air box is horrendous and seriously impedes flow. OP, get an aftermarket intake. Either SRI or CAI, whichever you prefer. Any reputable brand is really going to open things up and let the engine breathe properly. I prefer CAI and will not drag us into the endless debate over individual preferences. Just get a good intake, either kind.

Make sure that if the intake tubing has any sort of curvature in the pipe before the air gets to the MAF sensor that there be some kind of air straightener ahead of the MAF sensor so you can get accurate readings to your ECU.

AFTER addressing the intake flow you can then and only then get benefit from opening up the exhaust.

On the exhaust side, the stock CBE actually flows better than the max flow rate from the K04 turbocharger, so OP is smart to save money and not go with a CBE. Changing CBE is only for sound on the stock turbo.

As to the dp/rp choices, I can only report why I made my choice to select the TurboXS dp/rp. There are a lot of good downpipes out there. Look for the following things

(1) high quality stainless construction;
(2) good reputation for fit and finish;
(3) a good cast stainless bellmouth - this really helps control flow and cool the exhaust gasses right as they leave the turbo and allows for a smooth transition without restriction for both the flow from the exhaust impeller and from the wastegate;
(4) well-designed flex joints for both the downpipe and the racepipe - the flex joints make installation much, much easier to line things up and to get a good seal on the flanges as you tighten things up;
(5) a complete kit that has all gaskets, nut, bolts and adapters so that you don't have to go out and buy anything.

The TurboXS kit has all of this. Maybe others do too.

Now, let me put a couple points out there for consideration. I bought my car new. I'm at 54,000 miles. The downpipe and race pipe combo went on about a month after the intake during the first 5,000 miles or so of ownership. This will kill your warranty. I don't care. This mod in combination with the intake has been absolutely spectacular and trouble free.

You will notice that this was without a tune. Anyone who says you have to have a tune or have to upgrade to an aftermarket high pressure fuel pump must consider that I'm still on the stock pump and only recently added a tune, Hypertech.

But, and this is an important one. If you add a downpipe and racepipe, you MUST monitor. This means at a minimum a boost gauge and some form of scan tool to check fuel pressure (at least regularly if not data logging). Why? Because you will quickly find out that the increased flow on both intake and exhaust will now cause boost to rise to 18-19 psi and there is risk of possible overboost (which has never happened to me) or possible early transient boost spikes (which did immediately become obvious) in the 21-22 psi range. Spikes can be potentially dangerous, although they caused me no problems and I watched this carefully and avoided going on boost below 3,000 rpm. The HT tune eliminated the spikes.

What to expect: With a good intake, the TurboXS dp/rp and one step colder plugs (probably not necessary) and on stock tune with stock BPV and on stock tires, I could easily run 13.4 quarters at 106. 60-100 mph times fell to 6.3 seconds compared to about 8 seconds on stock tune. It rips. The two mods together will result in a 30-40 whp gain over stock.

There is a chance if going catless that you will get a check engine light. The TurboXS does a good job with a raised 02 bung in reducing this. I still get the light maybe once every several months. I just clear it and roll on.

If you want to know what to expect, just check out the video named msms3 on YouTube. That's my 40-120 mph run. 12.5 seconds. That is on stock tune before I added the Hypertech flash. Stock would be almost 5 seconds slower. Five seconds is huge.

 

[ChazSpeed]

Went to the local Cobb shop (Plano). Talked with Chris, he noted that getting a DP without the AP doesn't do much of anything as the ecu does a good job of balancing it out once it is on.

So since I wanted to stay under 1k I am going to go SRI, TIP, AP, and a SURE RMM. Figure I can get the DP in a few months and see how the fuel pump handles it.

One thing he noted was that he thought the AP gave a noticeable boost to a stock MS3, and that he wouldn't even think of putting on the SRI until an AP was in place as he has seen some bad engine damage from the boost spikes and running lean that comes from non-managed intake upgrades.

Thanks for the input guys!

 

[MSMS3]

So a five second drop in time from 40-120 mph with a simple CAI and catless dp/rp on STOCK tune "doesn't do much of anything"? Surely you realize how huge a difference that is.

Cobb's AP is a nice tuning tool, but whoever told you the crap that a dp does not do much of anything without AP, Chazspeed, is living a very delusional life. You have a 2007 Mazdaspeed 3. I know vendors and manufacturers have to sell product. Cobb does not need to lie to establish that its tune makes power. It does. And in the hands of someone who really knows how to use it without going, zoom, zoom, boom it is a powerful tuning device.

But to say that a simple intake and a good downipipe/racepipe combo does not produce power is outrageous. And to claim that simple intake mods alone without a tune are dangerous is absolute BS. Hell, Mazda even authorizes and sells its own MS3 specific CAI, a rebranded AEM. Both Car and Driver and Road and Track posted before and after dyno data showing a whopping 20 bhp gain from intake mod alone with absolutely no safety issues.

Add a good downpipe/racepipe combo and you more that double that, but do have to monitor.

The only explanation I can offer for the tragically misinformed "Chris" at Cobb (if you understood him correctly) is that he must have thought you had a gen pu 2010-2011 MS3, which has a totally different ECU and does have problems with fuel pressure issue with even modest mods for some owners.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pRY2wCDcfWA

 

[ChazSpeed]

Yeah, he didn't ask the year so he might be thinking it is 2nd gen.

His note on the DP was if that was the only mod (e.g. no intake) they have run multiple dynos where the ECU doesn't push more through because it is still running the stock airflow situation fine and has no reason to go higher even if it can push more air out the back end if it wanted to. Basically even though you give it more breathing room on the back end it doesn't need to pump out more to do what it is already doing.

I will ask him about the intake on Gen1 you are right about the MS CAI so it makes sense it should be able to handle it.

Thanks!

 

[F2T guy]

Cobb AP: $595
Cobb intake: $175
Cobb inlet: $165
*Cobb DP:$695
*KMD HPFP internals: $329
Total= $1959 [without DP or HPFP] Total= $935

Or..

Ebay DP: $150 (both are T304 stainless and 3")
CS Intake+inlet: $149 (bought it right here off the classifieds)
KMD HPFP internals: $329
MBC: $100 or less (to control your boost spike)
Total= $728

Moral of the calculations, for $200 less you can have a WAY faster car thats still right at your budget and just as reliable.
Or
You can spend the additional $1231 to get the Cobb DP and the HPFP that you WILL need in order to not blow your car up and it's still going to be just slightly faster.