Solo II FSP 1st Gen vs. 3rd Gen

[xelderx]

I think a little discussion on this might be a good thing. I truely believe that FSP is one of the best classes for the Protege. Not from a nationally competitive standpoint since it's near impossible to get down to a competitive weight (at least in the 3rd Gen), but the mods allowed really open up the car and make it a blast to drive without taking away too much daily drivability. We all know that the 1st Gen weighs 300-400 pounds less IIRC, and the BP motor has more potential than the FS. What is really holding the 1st Gens back? FSP should allow for enough mods to overcome any chassis faults. Am I missing something, or is it just that no one has really went full out on a 1st Gen?

Things of most importance that I don't know about the 1st Gen...

LSD available?
Good struts available?
Suspension bracing?
Minimum rim size to fit over brakes?

What are the weights of the 1st Gens. Are the Hatchbacks any lighter?

 

[dmitrik4]

i've been wondering the same thing. here are my thoughts...they're probably worth what you paid for them:

-the weight difference is really not much. as far as i can tell, the 1st gens are "true" proteges in that they aren't particularly light. the info i've found says 23XX for the base models (SE, DX) and 24XX for the LX w/ the BP motor. my loaded '02 ES weighs 2625 stock, and i think the 3rd gen DX/LX can be had largely stock in the 2400s (sans side bags, moonroof, 16" wheels, etc). in reality it's probably close to a wash, weight-wise...i think a 1st gen could get into the low 2100s, with a 3rd gen maybe less than 100 lbs more than that, in SP trim. not scirocco territory, but....

maybe the best combo would be a 1st gen base model w/ a BP transplant...that way you can skip things like the moonroof and power accessories. while the 323 hatch is definitely lighter, it's on a different line from the protege in Appendix A, so no swaps allowed.

-i think the BP probably has more potential more easily, if only b/c much of the R&D has been done by the Miata guys, who are getting 150+whp in SP trim. but no one has really built up an FS, so who knows? in reality, you probably know more than anyone about Street Prepared FS motors.

-Corksport lists Quaifes available for either gen.

-Koni makes struts for the 1st gen...it wasn't until '01 that mazda really pissed them off. but you'd probably have to have them custom valved, shortened, all that, as i believe they only offer the OTS Sport valving. AWR seems like the best option for 3rd gen suspension.

after fiddling around with another (and admittedly MUCH rarer) older car, i'm inclined towards the 3rd gen, if only for the decrease in rusty crap and a better availability of support and parts. and while i love the BP's smoothness and power, the midrange torque of the FS would be a huge help on course.

 

[xelderx]

Awesome write up. Thats the kind of info I was looking for.

 

[kcbhiw]

FYI, the LSD used in the MSP will work in the 1st gen's G-series transmission. A few guys are running that.

 

[xelderx]

FYI, the LSD used in the MSP will work in the 1st gen's G-series transmission. A few guys are running that.

I heard that as well. I'm still seeing good things coming from a FSP 1st Gen. I'm getting ready to install my Momo seats and aside from a fuel cell there isn't much else I can do to drastically reduce the weight. I'm at 2590 last time I weighed. I'll be lucky to make it to 2500lbs with a few more small mods. I didn't think the DX/LX 3rd Gen's were that much lighter. The FS motor has potential and I'll be able to give some solid HP #'s once I get my ported head and intake mani on in a few weeks. I still think the BP motor has more to offer looking at the CSP Miatas. The more I think about it the more I want to try a 1st Gen...just because I know how much the power to weight ratio is hurting me.

 

[kcbhiw]

I heard that as well. I'm still seeing good things coming from a FSP 1st Gen. I'm getting ready to install my Momo seats and aside from a fuel cell there isn't much else I can do to drastically reduce the weight. I'm at 2590 last time I weighed. I'll be lucky to make it to 2500lbs with a few more small mods. I didn't think the DX/LX 3rd Gen's were that much lighter. The FS motor has potential and I'll be able to give some solid HP #'s once I get my ported head and intake mani on in a few weeks. I still think the BP motor has more to offer looking at the CSP Miatas. The more I think about it the more I want to try a 1st Gen...just because I know how much the power to weight ratio is hurting me.

I agree with your comments regarding the FS. I beleive that the reason that the FS receives such a bad rap is that it doesn't accept modifications as well as the BP does out of the box. Have a look at the SWC Proteges that are making 240 BHP NA. The same can be acheived with the BP with equal reliability.

Side note, when are you coming to Atlanta again? We've got a few upcoming events with racing on both Saturday and Sunday. You should pay a visit!

 

[xelderx]

I agree with your comments regarding the FS. I beleive that the reason that the FS receives such a bad rap is that it doesn't accept modifications as well as the BP does out of the box. Have a look at the SWC Proteges that are making 240 BHP NA. The same can be acheived with the BP with equal reliability.

Side note, when are you coming to Atlanta again? We've got a few upcoming events with racing on both Saturday and Sunday. You should pay a visit!

Probably later next month. I'll have to see how the financial side of things look.

 

[dmitrik4]

after more research, i'm becoming more and more convinced that a base model 1st gen (SE/DX) w/ a BP engine/tranny swap is the way to go for FSP.

i really think in SP trim the 1st gen could get under 2100 (from ~2350), and with the power of the BP, 225/50/14s or 225/45/15s on 7", 8", or even 9" wheels would be definitely doable. on the smaller SE/DX brakes, 13" wheels would also fit. with a Quaife and a built BP (150-160whp), that could be a mean setup.

my only worry would be suspension, but if all else fails, there's always Advance Design custom bits.

but keep us posted on those numbers for your FS...mmm, torque. unfortunately, i don't think there's an SP-legal way to drop an FS into a 1st gen, even though it is technically OK.

 

[xelderx]

after more research, i'm becoming more and more convinced that a base model 1st gen (SE/DX) w/ a BP engine/tranny swap is the way to go for FSP.

i really think in SP trim the 1st gen could get under 2100 (from ~2350), and with the power of the BP, 225/50/14s or 225/45/15s on 7", 8", or even 9" wheels would be definitely doable. on the smaller SE/DX brakes, 13" wheels would also fit. with a Quaife and a built BP (150-160whp), that could be a mean setup.

my only worry would be suspension, but if all else fails, there's always Advance Design custom bits.

but keep us posted on those numbers for your FS...mmm, torque. unfortunately, i don't think there's an SP-legal way to drop an FS into a 1st gen, even though it is technically OK.

I'm thinking the same things. I'll be getting a dyno on the motor as soon as I get some tires which is the top priority before Divisionals in Norfolk. It appears that quality race suspension is the only gray area on the 1st Gen. Any other shortfalls can be worked out with the SP rules. I'm looking for a 1st Gen in the junkyards right now that I can pick up cheap.

 

[dmitrik4]

make sure the body is clean. rust SUCKS, and most other stuff is going to get replaced/rebuilt anyway.

the skinny on the typical top FSP car: there really isn't one (except for Kugler). a mix of Sciroccos, Rabbits, Civics, Corollas, etc. mostly ~2000lbs or less, and 100-115whp. so a 1st gen is heavier, but with more rubber and a lot more power.

edit: and the typical top FSP car has a seriously fast driver. (burnout)

 

[xelderx]

I called the local salvage yards today and there is one that has a few 1st Gen's. I'm going to go look at them on Friday and see if there is a good chassis to start with.

 

[dmitrik4]

btw, here's a thread i started:

http://sccaforums.com/forums/ShowPost.aspx?PostID=153762

 

[kcbhiw]

It's worth looking here in Atlanta too. Of the two yards that I regularly visit, I see no less than 15 (average) BG chassis' on "display". IOW, owners are selling the cars cheap here.

 

[xelderx]

btw, here's a thread i started:

http://sccaforums.com/forums/ShowPost.aspx?PostID=153762

That looks like promising info. I bet we could get some 245/50-15 Hoosiers on the 1st Gen. I'll be going to the salvage yard later today if I wake up early enough. I'll post what I find. I'll try and remember to take my camera.

 

[xelderx]

The local yard had a few cars to choose from, but none of them were non-sunroof and manual tranny, so I'll have to swap some stuff in. I'm definitely getting a non-sunroof model. I'm going back on Monday to talk prices. I was also looking at tire choices and there isn't really any nice wide tires available for the smaller rim diameters. That might take some working out...

 

[khaosman]

I was also looking at tire choices and there isn't really any nice wide tires available for the smaller rim diameters. That might take some working out...

How small? I was drooling over 225/45/15 Avon Tech-Rs @ tirerack, coupled with a set of Rota wheels

 

[xelderx]

How small? I was drooling over 225/45/15 Avon Tech-Rs @ tirerack, coupled with a set of Rota wheels

I was thinking about 13X9 or 14X9" rims.

 

[Gen1GT]

A 1st Gen won the overall CASC-Ontario Region championship last year, and it wasn't even fully prepped for FSS.

My GT weighed 2550 when I first got it, is 2350 now in street trim, and I've had it down to 2250 in race trim. The problem is, GTs came fully loaded, so I have a heavy glass moonroof to deal with, power everything heavy seats. There's a guy on clubprotege who got his 1st Gen down to 18XX lbs, and is running a 14.9 with as little as 122ish whp. The BP is a much better starting point, and there are a couple guys making 145whp on the stock bottom end. 150 is easy with a mild build, 170 with a good build, and 200whp is there if you have the money. My car is making 116lb-ft, with no header and stock intake, so considering the weight advantage, they're far from torque-less compared to the FS. 140lb-ft is easy with high compression and an overbore.

225/50/14 fit on the front with the stock wheels, and you'll need a 15mm spacer for the rear to mount the same. You CANNOT fit a tire larger than 225 however. H&R with Tokicos is a good bet, or the Koni strut inserts. Ground Control is also an option, and I believe somebody just came out with a full coilover. Rear sway bar is also available.

You could make a SERIOUS FSP machine with a 1st Gen. 2000lbs and 150whp would be easy. And the 1st Gen chassis handles like a dream right out of the box.

 

[xelderx]

You should be able to go as wide as you want on the tires as long as the car is sprung stiff enough to keep them from rubbing. The SCCA modified the rules to allow the tires to stick out past the fenders in SP trim. My 225's on the rear of my Pro5 stick out about .5 inches past the fenders, but the suspension is stiff enough that it doesn't rub.

 

[Salmon_Rob]

i dont know what size tire you need to clear the brakes but:

Mazdaspeed 5 way adjustable Struts
GAB 5 way adjustable struts
Ford Racing Tokico Zx-2 Struts
Mazdaspeed A-spec Springs
Eibach springs
Sprint Springs
Ground Controls
H&R springs
Suspension Tech Sway bars
Off The Line Motorsports lower tie bars
OEM strut bars (mazda/mazdaspeed makes front and rear)
you can use the msp lsd, or there are 4 or 5 different first gen gseries that came with lsd's. TheMan listed them once, i cant remember where
Last time i weighed mine it was 2345 with me in it, but that was with cf hood, the rims and everything out of the back

and then you have the bulletproofness of the first gen, and the bp, plus the rock solid reliability that the first gen provides. and bps dont blow up when you turn left, go down the highway, go up the mountain roads, etc