US Diesel's big splash introduction

[onno]

The mild hybrids that have hit the market so far have been disappointing to say the least. I would skip that idea and just move on to a PHEV or EV with range extender.

Which ones with 48 V are you referring to that "have hit the market"? The Acura NSX and MDX Sport Hybrid using three smallish motors have gotten great reviews. Test drive the MDX Sport Hybrid, a big 3.0 non-turbo that with the three motors drives as if it were way smaller and lighter. The upcoming Mercedes adding "184 pound-feet of torque" may not be as disappointing as the ones your thinking of.

Maybe I'm mistaken, but are you talking about something other than the very new 48V = Mild Hybrids? Maybe we're using different terminology of what is "Mild Hybrid".


Power gains are possible, too. In the SQ7, a diesel S.U.V. that Audi does not currently sell in the United States, an electric motor drives a vane-type supercharger. Similar in operation to a turbocharger, this device delivers its power boost at low engine speeds without the lag of an exhaust-driven turbo. And Mercedes-Benz is equipping the new in-line six-cylinder engine of the 2019 CLS 450 with its EQ integrated starter-generator system. In this design, the electricity is produced in the space between the engine and transmission. In motor mode, it adds 21 horse power and 184 pound-feet of torque for quick getaways, and it can take over for the gas engine at a steady-state cruise.

These 48V Mild Hybrid motors seem to be best paired with turbos, but they could lend the CX-5 some instant low end torque. It's pretty good as it is, but could be better (thus folk asking for turbo from CX-9, or diesel). Or, even with SkyactivX.

 

[finch204]

If I'm not mistaken, the diesel ban in Germany are only for certain cities that are really congested and the ban is only for older diesel cars. The cities will get to decide what older diesel car they can ban. So it is not that big of a deal yet. It is inevitable though as someone has mentioned. Eventually we will no longer be able to purchase diesel and gas powered cars. I just wish when that time comes, that electric cars are cleaner, not just from an emissions perspective, but from a manufacturing and maintenance perspective.

 

[Puyapim]

If I'm not mistaken, the diesel ban in Germany are only for certain cities that are really congested and the ban is only for older diesel cars. The cities will get to decide what older diesel car they can ban. So it is not that big of a deal yet. It is inevitable though as someone has mentioned. Eventually we will no longer be able to purchase diesel and gas powered cars. I just wish when that time comes, that electric cars are cleaner, not just from an emissions perspective, but from a manufacturing and maintenance perspective.

The cars may have cleaner emissions but the power plants to produce the electricity are the key. You will need more of them.

 

[finch204]

The cars may have cleaner emissions but the power plants to produce the electricity are the key. You will need more of them.

That is also another aspect yes. We need the power grid to be as clean as possible.

 

[Red MC]

Which ones with 48 V are you referring to that "have hit the market"? The Acura NSX and MDX Sport Hybrid using three smallish motors have gotten great reviews. Test drive the MDX Sport Hybrid, a big 3.0 non-turbo that with the three motors drives as if it were way smaller and lighter. The upcoming Mercedes adding "184 pound-feet of torque" may not be as disappointing as the ones your thinking of.

Maybe I'm mistaken, but are you talking about something other than the very new 48V = Mild Hybrids? Maybe we're using different terminology of what is "Mild Hybrid".


Power gains are possible, too. In the SQ7, a diesel S.U.V. that Audi does not currently sell in the United States, an electric motor drives a vane-type supercharger. Similar in operation to a turbocharger, this device delivers its power boost at low engine speeds without the lag of an exhaust-driven turbo. And Mercedes-Benz is equipping the new in-line six-cylinder engine of the 2019 CLS 450 with its EQ integrated starter-generator system. In this design, the electricity is produced in the space between the engine and transmission. In motor mode, it adds 21 horse power and 184 pound-feet of torque for quick getaways, and it can take over for the gas engine at a steady-state cruise.

These 48V Mild Hybrid motors seem to be best paired with turbos, but they could lend the CX-5 some instant low end torque. It's pretty good as it is, but could be better (thus folk asking for turbo from CX-9, or diesel). Or, even with SkyactivX.

Mild hybrids have been on the market for a long time (15+ years?). Honda was the first out, followed by GM. They make up the bulk of the ones I'm familiar with. Other manufacturers have dabbled. GM used a 36-48V system in its first generation system, but switched to a 115V system to get more out of the motor.

 

[onno]

Mild hybrids have been on the market for a long time (15+ years?). Honda was the first out, followed by GM. They make up the bulk of the ones I'm familiar with. Other manufacturers have dabbled. GM used a 36-48V system in its first generation system, but switched to a 115V system to get more out of the motor.

Varying definitions. I agree that the 48V bolt-on belt driven starter/alternator/motor assist won't be exciting, although they should help mileage, and reduce pollution (better start-stop at traffic lights, etc.). They'll have a role to play.

I further agree that these are interim systems until full EV vehicles and charging infrastructure, via clean electricity (not coal generated as in my state) hit their inflection point. We can speculate how many years away that is. (That Tesla big rig truck can reduce regional pollution, around ports where there is a lot of short haul from port docks to nearby distribution warehouses.)

So, for a bridge until then:

The Mitsubishi, and soon other, in-line motors (crank or transmission) is where it should get interesting for driving dynamics.

Under hood is a new 3.0-liter inline six-cylinder engine that makes 362 horsepower and 369 pound-feet of torque before the EQ Boost kicks in. See, the CLS 450 will be the first Benz to boast Mercedes' new 48-volt EQ Boost mild hybrid system which adds an additional 21 horsepower and 184 pound-feet of torque to the power party for short bursts of speed.

Mitsubishi Electric developed its ISG system-a crankshaft direct-driven system for idling-stop-start, energy recovery and torque assist-to achieve higher output power and better fuel efficiency in 48V hybrid vehicles. Mitsubishi Electric will continue developing increasingly smaller, lighter-weight and higher-power ISG systems to increase fuel efficiency and reduce CO2 emissions.

"Performance pack":
48V Supercharger (paired with twin-scroll turbocharger, or even twin turbos). Instant low rpm torque, by eliminating turbo lag.*
48V motor at/in transmission, "booster motor". Say, 100-150 foot lbs. from the Mitsubishi and follow on units.
48V rear axle motor(s). Two for torque vectoring. Affordable torque vectoring. (ex. Acura NSX. Their MDX Sport Hybrid cost ~$2K extra. Some development crew took a Tesla P90 and replaced the rear drive motor with two for torque vectoring, and achieved even greater handling.)

*(SQ7 diesel has 48V supercharger, and twin turbos; one small fast spool and one larger for maximum boost.)
Note: A 48V belt system is not in this performance pack class.

PS: I've a deposit for a Tesla 3. But I don't think I'll buy it. A high percentage of my electricity is coal. The range "limitation" (real or just range anxiety) is significant too.

 

[GJ-Molestor]

Under hood is a new 3.0-liter inline six-cylinder engine that makes 362 horsepower and 369 pound-feet of torque before the EQ Boost kicks in. See, the CLS 450 will be the first Benz to boast Mercedes' new 48-volt EQ Boost mild hybrid system which adds an additional 21 horsepower and 184 pound-feet of torque to the power party for short bursts of speed.

I am very much looking forward to seeing this new Inline 6 being released. BMW mustve been having way too much fun being the only brand making a good inline 6 engine.

the Mercedes version is going to have one very large turbocharger, and it is also supercharged to help reduce lag before the big turbo comes on. it's an interesting setup that should work well while returning very good fuel economy.

 

[Buzzman12]

The cars may have cleaner emissions but the power plants to produce the electricity are the key. You will need more of them.

Yes, you are correct, but unfortunately that's just one part of the overall picture when it comes to EV's.
What most people fail to take into consideration is the entire EV process, from conception to end of life.
The processing and manufacturing/refinement of the precious metals needed to build a electric car are highly complex, and are a contributor to global environmental pollution.
It takes a lot more cost, effort and pollution to produce the necessary materials for an EV than it does to produce a cast iron 4 cylinder engine block.
The batteries are very costly to manufacture, both in terms of cost and environmental damage.
Then there's the matter of what to do with all these vehicles and their batteries, motors, etc., when they reach end of life?
That stuff has to go somewhere.
Some of you are gonna say we'll recycle that stuff. Well, maybe, but it will be expensive.
We humans also say we'll recycle AA and AAA batteries, but we all know what 99% of people do with their dead flashlight, toy and smoke detector batteries, don't we?
Yup. In the trash.
EV's may not spew harmful exhaust out of a tail pipe when driving, but start to finish, they are anything but pollution free.

 

[Puyapim]

Yes, you are correct, but unfortunately that's just one part of the overall picture when it comes to EV's.
What most people fail to take into consideration is the entire EV process, from conception to end of life.
The processing and manufacturing/refinement of the precious metals needed to build a electric car are highly complex, and are a contributor to global environmental pollution.
It takes a lot more cost, effort and pollution to produce the necessary materials for an EV than it does to produce a cast iron 4 cylinder engine block.
The batteries are very costly to manufacture, both in terms of cost and environmental damage.
Then there's the matter of what to do with all these vehicles and their batteries, motors, etc., when they reach end of life?
That stuff has to go somewhere.
Some of you are gonna say we'll recycle that stuff. Well, maybe, but it will be expensive.
We humans also say we'll recycle AA and AAA batteries, but we all know what 99% of people do with their dead flashlight, toy and smoke detector batteries, don't we?
Yup. In the trash.
EV's may not spew harmful exhaust out of a tail pipe when driving, but start to finish, they are anything but pollution free.

I totally agree. Thanks for the detailed explanation.

 

[Monterra]

+1..which is why I laugh at Tesla owners many of whom I think truly believe Elon and his cult are saving the planet- those who know rightly call bulls***..imo

 

[onno]

+1..which is why I laugh at Tesla owners many of whom truly believe Elon and his cult are saving the planet- those who know rightly call bulls***..

Make that ++2. Cradle to grave needs to be factored; and beyond the sunshine, wind, hydro, nuclear => to electricity part. What is that round thing powering Iron Man? Add one of those.

 

[onno]

I am very much looking forward to seeing this new Inline 6 being released. BMW mustve been having way too much fun being the only brand making a good inline 6 engine.

the Mercedes version is going to have one very large turbocharger, and it is also supercharged to help reduce lag before the big turbo comes on. it's an interesting setup that should work well while returning very good fuel economy.

I hope it goes well. The 1) 48V powered supercharger, 2) small fast spin-up turbo and 3) large high output turbo work well in the SQ7. A trifecta. (OK, add in that SQ7 has a diesel too.)

 

[Puyapim]

Make that ++2. Cradle to grave needs to be factored; and beyond the sunshine, wind, hydro, nuclear => to electricity part. What is that round thing powering Iron Man? Add one of those.

Make it +3. Elon may be a brilliant imaginative visionary but his financial dealings are nothing more than a New York shell game.

 

[GJ-Molestor]

+1..which is why I laugh at Tesla owners many of whom I think truly believe Elon and his cult are saving the planet- those who know rightly call bulls***..imo

+4

 

[markjenn]

Make that ++2. Cradle to grave needs to be factored; and beyond the sunshine, wind, hydro, nuclear => to electricity part. What is that round thing powering Iron Man? Add one of those.

True, but when you start trying to do true "cradle to grave" calculations, literally hundreds of assumptions need to be made about how the car is manufactured, how it will be recycled, how electricity and gasoline is produced/refined, etc. etc etc. And you can work these assumptions to prove anything you like. For example, about ten years ago, a right-wing sponsored "research lab" (actually a single person with no technical credentials working out of his home in coastal Oregon) produced a study that said a Hummer was environmentally 10x better than a Prius. All you have to do is tilt all the assumptions one way or the other.

Really want to make a difference in your environmental footprint? Drive less. Buy the smallest car that meets your needs. Keep driving the car you have and repair it rather than getting a new one. These are the things that will make a real difference, not whether you own an electric or gasoline car.

- Mark

 

[Nelson de Leon]

+1..which is why I laugh at Tesla owners many of whom I think truly believe Elon and his cult are saving the planet- those who know rightly call bulls***..imo

At a good point, yeah those power plants still generate pollution. However it would be easier for the government to control pollution from a point source (power plant) rather than multiple sources like gasoline and diesel engines.

 

[Monterra]

True, but when you start trying to do true "cradle to grave" calculations, literally hundreds of assumptions need to be made about how the car is manufactured, how it will be recycled, how electricity and gasoline is produced/refined, etc. etc etc. And you can work these assumptions to prove anything you like. For example, about ten years ago, a right-wing sponsored "research lab" (actually a single person with no technical credentials working out of his home in coastal Oregon) produced a study that said a Hummer was environmentally 10x better than a Prius. All you have to do is tilt all the assumptions one way or the other.

Really want to make a difference in your environmental footprint? Drive less. Buy the smallest car that meets your needs. Keep driving the car you have and repair it rather than getting a new one. These are the things that will make a real difference, not whether you own an electric or gasoline car.

- Mark

Great post Mark! and that's probably the first time I've said that maybe 2nd

 

[Dakd]

Electric cars have a lot more potential to be environmentally friendlier since they are pretty much in infancy and lot more progress is yet to be made on the other hand ICE engines are probably in the last stage of it's life.

 

[GJ-Molestor]

Electric cars have a lot more potential to be environmentally friendlier since they are pretty much in infancy and lot more progress is yet to be made on the other hand ICE engines are probably in the last stage of it's life.

100% not true

 

[Dakd]

100% not true

I guess we'll see in about 20 years who's 100% correct, I'm sure this thread will remain at the top while we're still waiting for diesel engine heh